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Forty-two · Guru

Are you more open-minded than your kids?

Cactus · Senior Member

I don't have kids so I can't answer.

But as for your particular example, it's possible your daughter may be very open minded but just know that an interracial marriage is not right for HER, kwim?

As for me, I don't have strong opinions about interracial marriage either. I think people should do what is right for themselves and not try to dictate what others do. At the same time there are things one cannot help but judge.

I know you didn't mean for this to be about race or interracial relationships but that was interesting to me...and of course the only part I could respond to as I don't have kids.

Forty-two · Guru

Cactus wrote:
I don't have kids so I can't answer.

But as for your particular example, it's possible your daughter may be very open minded but just know that an interracial marriage is not right for HER, kwim?

As for me, I don't have strong opinions about interracial marriage either. I think people should do what is right for themselves and not try to dictate what others do. At the same time there are things one cannot help but judge.

I know you didn't mean for this to be about race or interracial relationships but that was interesting to me...and of course the only part I could respond to as I don't have kids.

Excellent point and I agree.

So since you don't have kids how do you compare to your parents are you more open-minded about things, e.g. premarital sex, drugs, gay marriage, etc.?

tigerlily · Guru

No kids. I think I'm more open-minded about things than my parents. But mostly because I don't really care what people do as long as they're not out negatively affecting others.

Cactus · Senior Member

I do think I am more open minded than my parents about most things.
My Dad is really not open minded about things like race, sexual orientation, religion, etc, IMO.
My mother is more open minded but I think tends to have qualifiers. You know, of the "___ is okay as long as they do/don't ___" type of thinking.

Forty-two · Guru

dqm either wrote:
I think it's funny that people will be considered opend minded for doing certain things but it's really WHY you do a thing that makes you open minded.

Take the first example

You look more open minded if you marry outside your race LOL

I didn't date Black guys when I was young because my father was a whore. I have at least one half brother that I don't know and have never met. My father is Black so I assume that my brother is Black. I was never interested in Black guys because any one of them could be my brother.

You look more open minded when you're pro choice again with the LOL

But the open minded part of it comes from WHY you're pro choice not just the fact that you are.

There are some irresponsible males who think that being pro choice means that the woman is solely responsible for pregnancy because they have a choice about what to do once pregnancy occurs. That's not really open minded.

I think my kids are pretty open minded not because of what they do but because of why they do it.

I'm pretty open minded too. But I guess everyone thinks they're open minded right?

Regarding the bolded you don't have to assume that, it is a certainty!

Regrading the rest of your post I don't understand how why would matter. In the example of being pro-choice what difference does it matter why you are pro-choice? The fact that you think a woman has the right to chose to have an abortion or not makes you open-minded regarding the issue of abortion. Yes, in the example you give the man may not be open-minded about pregnancy responsibility but he is open-minded about abortion.

I don't think I am open-minded about everything, that is for sure, there are several things I am not open-minded about but I do think I am more open minded than my kids less so than DH and DXH.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Friday 9th of November 2012 08:30:53 PM

-- Edited by Forty-two on Friday 9th of November 2012 08:31:20 PM

huckleberry · Senior Member

My kids are very open minded in the sense that they don't judge others based on stereotypes, and conventions are of no concern to them.

But (and I think this is part of being young) they tend to see moral and ethical issues as very clearcut, and have little patience or sympathy for people who step over those lines.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

I don't have biological kids... but I inherited three with the marriage.

There's absolutely no doubt that I'm more open minded than they are. About the only place where we are equally open-minded is anything pertaining to gay rights... but that may only be because their father "came out" as gay about 2 decades ago.

Religion? They are not open minded, I am.
Relationships? Other than the afore-mentioned gay issues, they are not open minded, I am open minded about all things relationship-wise.
Race? They are not open minded, I am.
Politics? They are not open minded, I am.

Aardvark · But my mom says I'm cool!

My son is too young to have prejudices, but as a daughter, I am definitely more open-minded. My dad wasn't overtly racist, but he did not approve of interracial relationships. He definitely was not sensitive to gays. My mom pretty much keeps her opinion to herself, but I do know that she thinks interracial couples should not have kids. She thinks it just makes things too hard for them and screws with their self-identity.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

I think it's funny that people will be considered opend minded for doing certain things but it's really WHY you do a thing that makes you open minded.

Take the first example

You look more open minded if you marry outside your race LOL

I didn't date Black guys when I was young because my father was a whore. I have at least one half brother that I don't know and have never met. My father is Black so I assume that my brother is Black. I was never interested in Black guys because any one of them could be my brother.

You look more open minded when you're pro choice again with the LOL

But the open minded part of it comes from WHY you're pro choice not just the fact that you are.

There are some irresponsible males who think that being pro choice means that the woman is solely responsible for pregnancy because they have a choice about what to do once pregnancy occurs. That's not really open minded.

I think my kids are pretty open minded not because of what they do but because of why they do it.

I'm pretty open minded too. But I guess everyone thinks they're open minded right?

Cactus · Senior Member

Those are good points, dqm. I definitely don't assume people are open minded (or non racist) just because they are in an interracial relationship.

And you're right-I am not sure who would self identify as close minded. Maybe some do, but we all judge ourselves by our own standards, which may mean little as far as anyone else is concerned.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Forty-two wrote:
I don't think I am open-minded about everything, that is for sure, there are several things I am not open-minded about but I do think I am more open minded than my kids less so than DH and DXH.

Part of being open minded is realizing that things outside of your experience are possible. For instance: Black people can have children that are not Black.

Black people can have kids that are Somoan, White, Asian, Mexican, Eskimo. Whatever. Just because you're Black there's no certainty that your children will be.

Pictures of my friend's kids (he's cool with it)

Spoiler

Their Dad

Spoiler

And yes the father is 1/2 French but he considers himself to be Black so he's a Black guy with White kids. With the exception of the color of the eyes and the color of the skin his oldest son looks JUST like him. His 2nd oldest looks more like his mother except for the hair. It's funny because the first girl looks just like the 2nd boy in the face. And the girls look like they could be twins but the 2nd girl looks nothing like the 2nd boy.

Although I admit I could be seeing their personalities mixed in with their features.

Forty-two · Guru

DQM that has nothing to do with open-mindedness it is about fact; but we have had this conversation before.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

^^^ LMAO!

I'm sure that everyone who is closeminded thinks that it's because they're right. Even when they're not.

That I know Black people with kids that are not Black (oh wait, I'm one of them aww ) just makes me laugh at your fact.

Forty-two · Guru

LMAO too. I have seen pictures of your daughters and they all look black not that how they look is relevant so we are both laughing.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

So open minded you are 42. So glad you're here cause you crack me up.

Forty-two · Guru

I wonder how you are defining black, therein may be our issue. I consider anyone with black parents black, additionally there is, of course, looking black. Those last two kids look black so no way would I call them white. It reminds me of Dh who calls himself blond but no one looking at him would; I guess I am closed-minded to not call someone something that they are not, so be it. I know several blue-eyed, light- skinned black people they don't call themselves white because they are not, because their parents are black (I will add I have learned from these boards that people are still "passing"). I guess I could be open-minded and call them something they are not, I am ok with not being open-minded in this issue. Describing yourself as something does not make it so.

This also reminds me of a couple where the girl referred to herself as white; she had an Italian name but she was black, when the guy met her parents, black mom white dad (Italian) he broke up with her. The guy did not break up with her because he was racist he broke up with her because he thought she was crazy and a liar.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 10th of November 2012 08:37:37 AM

Forty-two · Guru

Being Black is having a set of physical characteristics or identifying yourself with that culture. That's it. So if you look like a Black person or you say you're a Black person then you are. If you don't -- then you're not. It's not that complicated.

I think this goes back to what Cactus said about how one defines black. I define a black person as someone with negro blood and in absense of knowing if they have negro blood there is having the appearance of having negro blood. I have no idea how you are defining it. It is clear you are not defining it by appearance because you have pictured people who look black and you say they are white and you are not using whether or not the person has negro blood because the people you mention they have that as well but are black so I don't know what you mean.

So although you have said the quote above you contradict that in pictures you have posted.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 10th of November 2012 06:34:10 PM

Cactus · Senior Member

I remember that conversation too, and I think the two of you mean different things by "black".

I gather that dqm's basis is appearance?

Of course how someone appears racially is to some degree a matter of perception, opinion, social conditioning...

If you are speaking of someone's racial origin, then yes, anyone who has a black biological parent is black or partly black-and they are also white, Asian, or whatever the other parent is too. Their DNA is from their biological parents regardless of what they look like.

Forty-two · Guru

Cactus wrote:
I remember that conversation too, and I think the two of you mean different things by "black".

I gather that dqm's basis is appearance?

Of course how someone appears racially is to some degree a matter of perception, opinion, social conditioning...

If you are speaking of someone's racial origin, then yes, anyone who has a black biological parent is black or partly black-and they are also white, Asian, or whatever the other parent is too. Their DNA is from their biological parents regardless of what they look like.

I mean appreance too. Just because you look light-skinned doesn't mean you look white nor are you white. I mean look at Halle Berry's daughter she is light-skinned but doesn't look white, too me, and she is only one quater black. I guess as far as appearance is concerned it is all in what you have been exposed to. Like I said I know tons of light-skinned, blue-eyed black people couldn't and don't "pass".

Forty-two · Guru

dqm either wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
It is clear you are not defining it by appearance because you have pictured people who look black and you say they are white
I intentionally picked this family out of the many that I know of Black parents who have children that aren't Black. The reason I picked this family is because even though the 1st daughter looks just like the 2nd son. Mike is not her father. The reason they look so much alike is because they both look just like their mother even though she is White and her brother is Black.
The boys are Mike's bio sons. The girls are his son's half sisters/his step daughters. Those girls are White. So you saying they look Black doesn't make them Black since both of their bio parents are White. Saying it's because they have 'negro' blood doesn't make them Black either because they don't.
I don't really know what you mean by 'looks Black' because you just looked at a picture of two White girls and declared them to be Black.
I could post pictures of any number of White people and suggest to you that they had one Black parent and you'd think they were Black even though they're not because once you hear that a person has a Black parent you close your mind to the fact that they could be White no matter the verbal or visual evidence to the contrary.

Well yeah if a person tells me they have a black parent I am going to think they are black because they have black blood unless they are not their bio parent. I think that you can look white and be black if you have black blood but it still does not make them white it just makes them look white.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 10th of November 2012 07:05:43 PM

Forty-two · Guru

dqm either wrote:
Yeah but above in the bold you say they look black. Three of those kids do not look Black.

I showed you those pictures because you said my kids all look Black. But by this little test it's obvious that you don't really know who looks Black and who doesn't.

Inasmuch as you can look black and not be you can look white and not be. Clearly you think some people don't look black and I do. How someone looks is subjective so that is why for me and many others being black is primarily about whether or not you have black blood.

Hey long story short I am going to call people with negro blood black people. You are probably use some other standard. I have seen what has happened when people who have black blood have tried to pass as white. I hope none of the things that I have seen happen to these people happen to anyone you know who is passing.

ETA: I must thank you for making me more aware that there are more people out there passing than I would have thought. So although there seems to be annoyance/hostility from you towards me I do appreciate you educating me on this matter, thank you.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 10th of November 2012 07:46:59 PM

huckleberry · Senior Member

I think it's awfully hard to objectively determine someone's "race" based on appearance.

Yes, lots of us look decidedly white or black, but lots could be either and our judgments are colored by context (pun intended).

For example, the woman and child in your picture (if I didn't know it was Halle Berry) could have any number of ethnic backgrounds just based on their looks. Or look at my great-aunties (Creole ladies from New Orleans) two of whom were darker than Halle with "black" hair and facial features, but who considered themselves and were considered white.

In terms of DNA and biology, there's so little difference between different colors of people as to be physically irrelevant. Socially it's a different story, of course.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Forty-two wrote:
Hey long story short I am going to call people with negro blood black people. Yeah but if the person has "White" blood then you could call the very same person White. I don't know why you're so insistant that the default is Black. When it could be either.
You are probably use some other standard.
Yes, I think the standard I'm using is called respect. I address people in the way that they self identify. For instance, I have friends and family that are biologically male but I refer to them as 'her or she' when they're in drag. If a guy has both male and female characteristics I address him by the one he identifies with.
I have seen what has happened when people who have black blood have tried to pass as white. I hope none of the things that I have seen happen to these people happen to anyone you know who is passing.
I have no idea what you're talking about. How old are you?
ETA: I must thank you for making me more aware that there are more people out there passing than I would have thought. So although there seems to be annoyance/hostility from you towards me I do appreciate you educating me on this matter, thank you.
From your screen name I thought that you and I were of an age (I'm 41) but I'm beginning to think that we come from two different eras. You're making it sound like it's perpetrating some sort of fraud or something to call yourself White.
It's just as acceptable to be White as it is to be Black.
I'm not sure why you would care that people are "passing" is there some reason you can't accept them for who they are? You clearly can't tell one from the other so what difference does it make? Even if you could tell one from the other I can't figure out what difference it would make?

post edited to reflect the fact that I can spell

-- Edited by dqm either on Saturday 10th of November 2012 08:34:47 PM

Forty-two · Guru

dqm either wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Hey long story short I am going to call people with negro blood black people. Yeah but if the person has "White" blood then you could call the very same person White. I don't know why you're so insistant that the default is Black. When it could be either.
You are probably use some other standard.
Yes, I think the standard I'm using is called respect. I address people in the way that they self identify. For instance, I have friends and family that are biologically male but I refer to them as 'her or she' when they're in drag. If a guy has both male and female characteristics I address him by the one he identifies with.
I have seen what has happened when people who have black blood have tried to pass as white. I hope none of the things that I have seen happen to these people happen to anyone you know who is passing.
I have no idea what you're talking about. How old are you?
ETA: I must thank you for making me more aware that there are more people out there passing than I would have thought. So although there seems to be annoyance/hostility from you towards me I do appreciate you educating me on this matter, thank you.
From your screen name I thought that you and I were of an age (I'm 41) but I'm beginning to think that we come from two different eras. You're making it sound like it's perpetrating some sort of fraud or something to call yourself White.
It's just as acceptable to be White as it is to be Black.
I'm not sure why you would care that people are "passing" is there some reason you can't accept them for who they are? You clearly can't tell one from the other so what differnce does it make? Even if you could tell one from the other I can't figure out what differnce it would make?

I think we have discussed this enough. I thank you for educating me and opening my mind to to the fact that there are people out there passing and leave it at that. I should not have started by saying what I did about your dad having black kids which is where this all started especially since I did not want this to be about race. I think we have probably beaten a dead horse and readers are probably sick of the discussion. So I will thank you again for educating me about people out there who have black parents who want to call themselves white. I thought that had stopped years ago now I know that I am wrong.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 10th of November 2012 08:44:45 PM

Cactus · Senior Member

tigerlily wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.

To be honest, I do understand why in some situations people react badly to other people's racial self identification. There is a lot of history behind it. It's not really about individuals so much as the larger context. But it's not respectful or productive to challenge others' racial self identification. Nor should one make assumptions about individual motives based on larger social patterns.

Personal choices, and the fact that such choices are loaded rather than neutral, can reflect larger social problems but that doesn't mean the choices per se are wrong or invalid.

I think we should respect how others self-identify and not make assumptions about why they identify as they do.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 10th of November 2012 11:46:12 PM

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Forty-two wrote:
LMAO too. I have seen pictures of your daughters and they all look black not that how they look is relevant so we are both laughing.

I mean appreance too.

If you mean in appearance then how are their looks not relevant...

You know what... never mind. I don't think you even know what you're saying so why am I asking?

Just because Hailey Berry's daughter is Black doesn't doesn't mean that it's impossible for a Black parent to have a child that is not Black. She is one person and to base

What is possible

off of such a small sampling is pretty much the definition of close mindedness. I know lots of Black people with children that are not Black. Three of the kids pictured above aren't Black and their father is just as Black as I am.

Being Black is having a set of physical characteristics or identifying yourself with that culture. That's it. So if you look like a Black person or you say you're a Black person then you are. If you don't -- then you're not. It's not that complicated.

I can't imagine how lacking in social graces you'd have to be to contradict someone on their identity.

-I'm Japanese
-Well you LOOK Chinese to me so you're Chinese.
- evileye Well that's just rude.
-Well I think you look Chinese and my perception of you is the one that counts donchaknow. And besides this one famous lady had a baby who looks like you and her baby is Chinese therefore all people who look like her baby are Chinese even if they're not. And I don't have a problem calling Japanese people Chinese because I'm ok with not being open minded on this issue.
- hmm I guess you told me.

_____________________________________________

-I'm Straight
-Well you LOOK Gay to me so you're Gay.
- evileye Well that's just rude.
-Well I think you look Gay and my perception of you is the one that counts donchaknow. And besides this one famous lady had a baby who looks like you and her baby is Gay therefore all people who look like her baby are Gay even if they're not. And I don't have a problem calling Straight people Gay because I'm ok with not being open minded on this issue.
- hmm I guess you told me.

______________________________________________

You'd have to be even more lacking in social graces to contradict someone's mother on their identity.

-My son is getting married?
-Really? You have Gay Marriage in your State?
-My son is Straight.
-Well he looks Gay to me and I'm the expert on all things Gay so yes your son is Gay because I say he is.
-Yeah. There's something seriously wrong with you lady.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Forty-two wrote:
It is clear you are not defining it by appearance because you have pictured people who look black and you say they are white
I intentionally picked this family out of the many that I know of Black parents who have children that aren't Black. The reason I picked this family is because even though the 1st daughter looks just like the 2nd son. Mike is not her father. The reason they look so much alike is because they both look just like their mother even though she is White and her brother is Black.
The boys are Mike's bio sons. The girls are his son's half sisters/his step daughters. Those girls are White. So you saying they look Black doesn't make them Black since both of their bio parents are White. Saying it's because they have 'negro' blood doesn't make them Black either because they don't.
I don't really know what you mean by 'looks Black' because you just looked at a picture of two White girls and declared them to be Black.
I could post pictures of any number of White people and suggest to you that they had one Black parent and you'd think they were Black even though they're not because once you hear that a person has a Black parent you close your mind to the fact that they could be White no matter the verbal or visual evidence to the contrary.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Yeah but above in the bold you say they look black. Three of those kids do not look Black.

I showed you those pictures because you said my kids all look Black. But by this little test it's obvious that you don't really know who looks Black and who doesn't.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:
tigerlily wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.
To be honest, I do understand why in some situations people react badly to other people's racial self identification. There is a lot of history behind it. It's not really about individuals so much as the larger context. But it's not respectful or productive to challenge others' racial self identification. Nor should one make assumptions about individual motives based on larger social patterns.
Personal choices, and the fact that such choices are loaded rather than neutral, can reflect larger social problems but that doesn't mean the choices per se are wrong or invalid.
I think we should respect how others self-identify and not make assumptions about why they identify as they do.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 10th of November 2012 11:46:12 PM

I stumble into this very late and very clumsily. My own apologies in advance.

I believe 42's point is that race is as much assigned from without as declared from within, and if enough (?) blood comes from a certain race then that's that. Case in point, someone's race is whatever the cop believes it is when the cop pulls someone over.

Cactus, I can respect a great deal. However if someone's self-declared race looks radically different from one's appearance, that someone sounds either vain or foolish (or both).

ETA: DQM, your kids

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Sunday 11th of November 2012 04:13:41 AM

tigerlily · Guru

I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Forty-two wrote:
I think we have discussed this enough. I thank you for educating me and opening my mind to to the fact that there are people out there passing and leave it at that. I should not have started by saying what I did about your dad having black kids which is where this all started especially since I did not want this to be about race. I think we have probably beaten a dead horse and readers are probably sick of the discussion. So I will thank you again for educating me about people out there who have black parents who want to call themselves white. I thought that had stopped years ago now I know that I am wrong.

If we're listing the things you shouldn't have said the comment about my kids should be on the list.

I don't give two figs about my fathers other kid(s) but your disrespect to my kids is where the hostility is coming from.

Even so I kept my points on topic. My point being that your mind is quite closed on this subject.

Forty-two · Guru

dqm either wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
I think we have discussed this enough. I thank you for educating me and opening my mind to to the fact that there are people out there passing and leave it at that. I should not have started by saying what I did about your dad having black kids which is where this all started especially since I did not want this to be about race. I think we have probably beaten a dead horse and readers are probably sick of the discussion. So I will thank you again for educating me about people out there who have black parents who want to call themselves white. I thought that had stopped years ago now I know that I am wrong.

If we're listing the things you shouldn't have said the comment about my kids should be on the list.
I don't give two figs about my fathers other kid(s) but your disrespect to my kids is where the hostility is coming from.
Even so I kept my points on topic. My point being that your mind is quite closed on this subject.

You are angry because I said your kids were black, I am sorry I did not know that was offensive other than that I am not sure how I disrespected them. You do continue to open my mind.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Actually no. Three of my kids are Black as am I so there's no 'anger' at being called Black.

The irritation comes when you start presenting your close mindedness as fact.
DQM that has nothing to do with open-mindedness it is about fact; but we have had this conversation before.

I have seen pictures of your daughters and they all look black not that how they look is relevant so we are both laughing.

This is what had me laughing at you. You claim some facts about how my daughter looks Black when you can't tell a Black person from a White person.

So again... my point is that when it comes to this issue what you claim to be a fact is just you being close minded.

And again. It's not about you calling my kids Black because three of them call themselves Black so there's nothing to get upset about.

I'd find you equally disrespectful if I showed you a picture of four kids and told you three were girls and one was a boy and you said

-Those are all girls because I've decreed that anyone who looks like that is a girl. And I don't understand why you get upset about me calling them all girls? Is there something wrong with being a girl?

Of course there's nothing wrong with being a girl if you ARE a girl but being told by someone else that it's a FACT that your child is (something they are not) is insulting.

It's weird that you need to be told that but I'm happy to tell you as many times and in as many ways as it takes.

Forty-two · Guru

dqm either wrote:
Actually no. Three of my kids are Black as am I so there's no 'anger' at being called Black.

The irritation comes when you start presenting your close mindedness as fact.
DQM that has nothing to do with open-mindedness it is about fact; but we have had this conversation before.
I have seen pictures of your daughters and they all look black not that how they look is relevant so we are both laughing.
This is what had me laughing at you. You claim some facts about how my daughter looks Black when you can't tell a Black person from a White person.
So again... my point is that when it comes to this issue what you claim to be a fact is just you being close minded.
And again. It's not about you calling my kids Black because three of them call themselves Black so there's nothing to get upset about.
I'd find you equally disrespectful if I showed you a picture of four kids and told you three were girls and one was a boy and you said
-Those are all girls because I've decreed that anyone who looks like that is a girl.  And I don't understand why you get upset about me calling them all girls? Is there something wrong with being a girl?

Of course there's nothing wrong with being a girl if you ARE a girl but being told by someone else that it's a FACT that your child is (something they are not) is insulting.
It's weird that you need to be told that but I'm happy to tell you as many times and in as many ways as it takes.

I can't appologize enough for offending you by saying you have a black child.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

To be accurate you didn't say I have a Black child so for you to apologize for something that you didn't say is meaningless.

I do have a Black child. To be sure, I have three of them so even if those were your words they would not have caused any offense to me because it's the truth.

I don't get offfended by the truth.

I get offended by rudeness and people insisting things about me (It's imposible for a Black person to have a White child) or my kids that aren't true as facts.

Forty-two · Guru

dqm either wrote:
To be accurate you didn't say I have a Black child so for you to apologize for something that you didn't say is meaningless.
I do have a Black child. To be sure, I have three of them so even if those were your words they would not have caused any offense to me because it's the truth.
I don't get offfended by the truth.
I get offended by rudeness and people insisting things about me (It's imposible for a Black person to have a White child) or my kids that aren't true as facts.

Jesus Effing Christ I am sorry that I said one out of four of your kids was black. Damn I have tried to apologize several times I can't make you happy.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

I keep clicking back into this thread and laughing my ass off!

You didn't say one out of my four kids is Black. I keep telling you I have three Black children. If only one of the four was Black then I'd have three White kids which I don't.

What you said was (paraphrased)

It's a fact that Black people can't have White kids.

If you really feel a need to apologize for anything apologize for something that you actually said. Making up stuff to apologize for when that's not even what you said is just serving to frustrate you.

Although I admit it's pretty damn funny to me so if you're worried about making me happy -don't. If this thread wasn't as entertaining as it is I'd have been able to log off hours ago.

I do however appreciat your continued attempt at apologizing even though your (self admitted) closemindedness on the subject is clearly blinding you to what your actual offense was.

It's ok though. I haven't laughed this hard all day and I do enjoy a good laugh.

Forty-two · Guru

Ok I am trying to craft this to make you happy.

I, 42, acknowledge that you have four children.

You say that three of these children are black I fully acknowledge that.

You say that you have a white child as well. I beg your forgiveness for disrespecting this child and you for of calling this child black.

Please forgive me or nail me to a cross, your choice.

Signed

42

Forty-two · Guru

DQM which of the ladies in the picture is self-identifying as white?

Has she always done so or has this evolved as she has gotten older?

Do her sisters and other family members identify her as white?

Do her friends identify her as white?

What happens when someone doesn't know that she identifies herself as white and refers to her as a black person does she correct them?

I have never met someone who does this so I am sorry that I have so many questions.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Sunday 11th of November 2012 08:15:12 AM

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Well there ends that fun and now off to the sushi bar for some live music and hopefully someone else to entertain me tonight.

Apology accepted and looking forward to our next disagreement to be as humorous as this one.

And just because I'm so very very proud of all of my children no matter how they self identify

some gratuitous photos of dqm's kids:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

This last picture is so funny because I'm convinced that #4 has just tooted, everyone looks at her and she says

-oops 'scuse me.

Cactus · Senior Member

Your kids are lovely, dqm!

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Cactus wrote:
tigerlily wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.
To be honest, I do understand why in some situations people react badly to other people's racial self identification. There is a lot of history behind it. It's not really about individuals so much as the larger context. But it's not respectful or productive to challenge others' racial self identification. Nor should one make assumptions about individual motives based on larger social patterns.
Personal choices, and the fact that such choices are loaded rather than neutral, can reflect larger social problems but that doesn't mean the choices per se are wrong or invalid.
I think we should respect how others self-identify and not make assumptions about why they identify as they do.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 10th of November 2012 11:46:12 PM
I stumble into this very late and very clumsily. My own apologies in advance.
I believe 42's point is that race is as much assigned from without as declared from within, and if enough (?) blood comes from a certain race then that's that. Case in point, someone's race is whatever the cop believes it is when the cop pulls someone over.
Cactus, I can respect a great deal. However if someone's self-declared race looks radically different from one's appearance, that someone sounds either vain or foolish (or both).
ETA: DQM, your kids

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Sunday 11th of November 2012 04:13:41 AM

PBJ, You hit the nail on the head (except I don't get the vain part).

Forty-two · Guru

Cactus wrote:
tigerlily wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.
To be honest, I do understand why in some situations people react badly to other people's racial self identification. There is a lot of history behind it. It's not really about individuals so much as the larger context. But it's not respectful or productive to challenge others' racial self identification. Nor should one make assumptions about individual motives based on larger social patterns.
Personal choices, and the fact that such choices are loaded rather than neutral, can reflect larger social problems but that doesn't mean the choices per se are wrong or invalid.
I think we should respect how others self-identify and not make assumptions about why they identify as they do.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 10th of November 2012 11:46:12 PM

Did someone make assumptions as to why someone would self-identify as one race or another?

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

I did say where I live.

No, I'm not in the LA area and the cops have known my kids all their lives. In fact a cop is outside the elementary school every morning rain, shine or snow. In our town it's not so much racial profiling as it is -stranger- profiling. The cops know who lives here and their reputations and they know who doesn't live here and is just a tourist.

As far as college goes if you know anything about college in CA you know we have a 3 tier system. ANYONE can get into college on the third tier. We have a 3rd tier college in our town.

So yes, where I live it's different.

Edit for mistake

-- Edited by dqm either on Sunday 11th of November 2012 05:24:26 PM

Forty-two · Guru

2. Did your identity evolve as you got older?

Good point. I should look at this more like being transgender. Where people look at you and see a male even if you self identify as female and you want to be referred to as female regardless what people think they see.

ETA; I don't understand why you have to be so unpleasant I am trying to engage in a normal conversation with you. Why is this comment necessary?

You don't have to apologize for asking questions. Asking questions is infinitely more respectful than making uninformed declarations of fact. And it's ok if you can't tell which is which because we've already tested and know you can't differentiate.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Sunday 11th of November 2012 05:40:39 PM

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

You found that comment unpleasant? Really?

I *don't you you don't have to aplogize for asking questions. I thought that was very open and nice of me. I confirmed that asking questions is respectful. And I told you that it's ok that you can't tell since we've already tested and know that you can't differentiate.

At what point was I unpleasant?

Are you reading some hidden meaning into it that isn't there? Because I don't see anything unpleasant.

EDIT *don't should say told

-- Edited by dqm either on Sunday 11th of November 2012 05:47:29 PM

Papa Bear · Senior Member

I am soooooooo glad this is the Activeboard where I'm not in charge and don't have to do a darned thing.

ETA: Carry on ......

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Sunday 11th of November 2012 05:51:19 PM

Papa Bear · Senior Member

I believe she meant, assume that a certain family lineage == a certain race.

Vain was probably the wrong word. (Was just beat.) I meant I'm white, but say I happen to have an eighth of Afr-American blood in me. If I go around calling myself black, maybe I'm trying to have things both ways: all the privilege of being white and all benefits of generosity borne of social victimhood besides. Greedy? There's a better word for it I'm sure.

Cactus · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
Cactus wrote:
tigerlily wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.
To be honest, I do understand why in some situations people react badly to other people's racial self identification. There is a lot of history behind it. It's not really about individuals so much as the larger context. But it's not respectful or productive to challenge others' racial self identification. Nor should one make assumptions about individual motives based on larger social patterns.
Personal choices, and the fact that such choices are loaded rather than neutral, can reflect larger social problems but that doesn't mean the choices per se are wrong or invalid.
I think we should respect how others self-identify and not make assumptions about why they identify as they do.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 10th of November 2012 11:46:12 PM
Did someone make assumptions as to why someone would self-identify as one race or another?

It was a general comment, not directed towards anyone ITT.