Invisapeeps 2.0

My parents told me where I was going to college and what I was going to major in. I did end up switching majors after the 2nd year. I don't think it was the best choice of a school for me, but its over and done with.

I don't remember thinking about it much for my undergrad university. I just "knew" I wanted to go to the Univ of Michigan. It was the only college I applied to, so it was a good thing I was accepted. :P

For grad school, there were 2 universities I was thinking about after talking with one of my undergrad profs. I was accepted to both, but one offered me funding up front. What really made my decision for me, though, was that I was in a horrible relationship and trying to end it but couldn't stick to my guns. My BF said he'd move with me to the one school but not to the one that offered me funding because it was in the middle of nowhere (still a very good, nationally-recognized program). So middle-of-nowhere school it was! Pretty sad I made my decision based mainly on getting away from him, but it worked! Took me a little while after I moved to make the breakup stick, but eventually I did. I was very much a doormat in those days and my self-esteem had been beaten down to almost nothing. Grad school was so good for me though - I made some really great friends and had a blast while building myself back up.

I picked my university based on reputation of the place and cost. (The Univ. Minnesota.)

I'm discussing this now with DDs. DD13 has her heart set on the University of Minnesota; DD10 wants to get away from here. For both of them (and DD6) the reputation of the school is the first consideration; price is second.

Courtesy of not being a minority race, nor being a (supposedly) oppressed gender, and not having parents that were poor enough (never mind that they weren't supporting me after I turned 18)... College wasn't an option for me.

I ran away from home when I was 17. I was gone for less than two weeks but when I came back finishing HS wasn't important anymore. In fact, I strategically didn't drop out yet didn't graduate. The social service people were complete idiots. In short they told me that smart, pretty, resourceful girls weren't the kind who went into the system and that I should just hang in there.

I finally got the courage to get away from my abuser and they marched me right back. So I spent down my money and tanked all my grades (nothing I could do about my looks) so that if he ever beat me again my profile would look more desperate and they'd have to DO something.

Turns out he never hit me again so after HS I went through a program at the local college that pays you to get your GED. They gave me the pre-test to see what areas I needed the most help and I passed with higher scores in every course than anyone who'd ever been through their program.

They called me in, asked me the how and why of my situation and I told them the truth (not something that was easy to do at that age. There was still alot of shame) and they paid for an accelerated 18 month course in business management and then got me a pretty sweet job. Luckily by the time I was 27 I was able to save enough to buy a house and quit working to stay home with my kids.

That was cool until my youngest went to kindergarten. Up till then I'd been investing in RE on my own but I got talked into going to real estate school and getting my license and making it a career. I did way better on my own.

In fact I'm convinced that the best way to suceed in real estate is to NOT get your license.

Holy crap that got long fast LOL! Ok the short answer. I picked my school because they paid me to get my GED, then all my tuition, my books and my childcare and the list of potential employers who hired out of their program was very impressive.

Um yeah, I left off a very important part of that story which is I had a partner the entire time. He was my boyfriend before I ran away and we were married the fall after HS so it's not like I did any of it on my own. But thanks. I'm glad it worked out too. And as the queen of overshare yes I did get professional help to deal with the abuse when I was in my early 20's. That sweet job I got was working in administration at a hospital and mental health services was one of the perks. I took full advantage and I have a relationship with my parents that's not unhealthy.

Sometimes it weirds me out to be 41 and yet in a relationship for 25 years. I'm thinking right now about my non formal education like just plain life stuff and wondering why and how I got to learn some of the things I have. Having kids always felt like a chance to make life right, to learn better and do better. I can't even describe what having a grandkid feels like. It feels like a reward or something. Like yep, you did the stuff you were supposed to do. You went to school you got married you raised your kids now here's your prize!

Sorry. I think for the next two weeks everything I say or do is going to be about one thing :)

dqm either wrote:

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Um yeah, I left off a very important part of that story which is I had a partner the entire time. He was my boyfriend before I ran away and we were married the fall after HS so it's not like I did any of it on my own. But thanks. I'm glad it worked out too. And as the queen of overshare yes I did get professional help to deal with the abuse when I was in my early 20's. That sweet job I got was working in administration at a hospital and mental health services was one of the perks. I took full advantage and I have a relationship with my parents that's not unhealthy.

Sometimes it weirds me out to be 41 and yet in a relationship for 25 years. I'm thinking right now about my non formal education like just plain life stuff and wondering why and how I got to learn some of the things I have. Having kids always felt like a chance to make life right, to learn better and do better. I can't even describe what having a grandkid feels like. It feels like a reward or something. Like yep, you did the stuff you were supposed to do. You went to school you got married you raised your kids now here's your prize!

Sorry. I think for the next two weeks everything I say or do is going to be about one thing :)

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 Your parents were OK with that?

huckleberry wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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Courtesy of not being a minority race, nor being a (supposedly) oppressed gender, and not having parents that were poor enough (never mind that they weren't supporting me after I turned 18)... College wasn't an option for me.

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 I thought it was because of the homework that was so pointless you refused to do it, thus earning unfair low grades?

I know we've argued about this before, but I hope someday you'll put the resentment behind you and just get your degree. 

I have a client who got hers at age 50+, after raising 4 kids on her own, one of them disabled. 

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 I remember that as well and was wondering the same thing. But now we know it was because he was a white man.

You say resentment, does he resent the teachers who wanted him to do homework or the women and minorities that took the spot he should have had regardless of whether or not he did his homework; because without doing his homework I wonder why he should have had the spot in college?

Forty-two wrote:

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huckleberry wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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Courtesy of not being a minority race, nor being a (supposedly) oppressed gender, and not having parents that were poor enough (never mind that they weren't supporting me after I turned 18)... College wasn't an option for me.

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 I thought it was because of the homework that was so pointless you refused to do it, thus earning unfair low grades?

I know we've argued about this before, but I hope someday you'll put the resentment behind you and just get your degree. 

I have a client who got hers at age 50+, after raising 4 kids on her own, one of them disabled. 

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 I remember that as well and was wondering the same thing. But now we know it was because he was a white man.

You say resentment, does he resent the teachers who wanted him to do homework or the women and minorities that took the spot he should have had regardless of whether or not he did his homework; because without doing his homework I wonder why he should have had the spot in college?

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Objectively speaking 42, didn't you say you once knew a football player in college who could barely do 6th-grade level reading?

If my memory's wrong, I apologize (really!). I'm just saying, I can see some truth in the idea that some who don't belong in college nevertheless get there anyway.

You're very classy, huck!

My own sore point along those lines is military service. When I was a teen, I wanted to, but my (Vietnam-era) parents talked me out of it. When I was 22 I realized I wanted to anyway and could have still joined, but (for whatever reason) didn't.

I have nobody to blame but myself for that.

I don't think that kid shouldn't have been in college, he was a football player there on scholarship for playing football, there are all sorts of reasons people are in college.

That's kinda-sorta my point though.

Say that Richard is as he is now, exactly as he is. But he can also throw a mean pass. Or shoot the 3 without breaking a sweat. He's no more "qualified" to get in college than before, and yet Ohio State, Michigan, Duke would all be killing each other over securing rights to him.

Forty-two wrote:

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dqm either wrote:

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He was my boyfriend before I ran away and we were married the fall after HS

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 Your parents were OK with that?

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 With which part?  

They didn't know him when I was 16.  And they had no say about me getting married.  I turned 18 in March and would have moved out that day but because I'd run away and social services were involved I had to stay in the home until graduation.

I always suspected that they were lying about that part but since I'd spent all my money I went along with the lie so I could have time to save up again.  Graduation was in June.  I moved out that night and I got married in November.  There really wasn't anything for my parents to be OK with.  By the time I got married I hadn't seen them or spoken to them in nearly six months.

No, even if they'd've been given a say in it I don't think they would have objected. When I came back and got the authorities involved it was more like we were housemates for that last part of my senior year.

They didn't say much more to me while I was living there. They weren't going to say anyting after I moved out. In fact they were bending over backwards to make me look like I was being a dramatic teenager and they were the upstanding citizens.

They probably would have paid for a wedding but I eloped.

Papa Bear wrote:

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Glad that worked out, dqm!

Richard, what's stopping you (now) from student loans?

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Now, what's stopping me is the fact that I don't retain things even remotely close to as well as I did when I was in what I call my "educational years". Memory loss is a fact of life in my family... and I'm in the beginning stages where new stuff doesn't "stick" well.

Forty-two wrote:

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huckleberry wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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Courtesy of not being a minority race, nor being a (supposedly) oppressed gender, and not having parents that were poor enough (never mind that they weren't supporting me after I turned 18)... College wasn't an option for me.

---

 I thought it was because of the homework that was so pointless you refused to do it, thus earning unfair low grades?

I know we've argued about this before, but I hope someday you'll put the resentment behind you and just get your degree. 

I have a client who got hers at age 50+, after raising 4 kids on her own, one of them disabled. 

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 I remember that as well and was wondering the same thing. But now we know it was because he was a white man.

You say resentment, does he resent the teachers who wanted him to do homework or the women and minorities that took the spot he should have had regardless of whether or not he did his homework; because without doing his homework I wonder why he should have had the spot in college?

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I don't resent the people that took advantage of the inequities. I wouldn't even call it resentment... but my issues are with the people that created the inequalities and the people that created the need for laws that (poorly) addressed them.

The homework was irrelevant. My test scores proved I knew the material. And there was SOME homework I did (research papers, and things like that), the homework I refused to do was, seriosuly, literally "busywork" (50 examples of the same problem type in math, break down and label 30 sentences in English, et cetera)

Eichard, I surely do not want to have that argument with you again, but I've been thinking about that thread recently.

Small Huck is a smart kid. She gets bored easily, which is one of the reasons I moved her to public school, where there is a gifted program and she will be challenged by the level of work.

But what you call "busywork" is actually quite necessary for her. Because she is so quick at grasping ideas, she is used to being able to ace tests and zip through classwork. So that completing a set number of tasks on her own that she'd rather not perform is the only way she will learn to organize her time, prioritize and develop intellectual discipline. I really think that is true of most bright kids, though it would be good if the homework is also challenging to the child.

Sorry for the hijack

huckleberry wrote:

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Eichard, I surely do not want to have that argument with you again, but I've been thinking about that thread recently.

Small Huck is a smart kid. She gets bored easily, which is one of the reasons I moved her to public school, where there is a gifted program and she will be challenged by the level of work.

But what you call "busywork" is actually quite necessary for her. Because she is so quick at grasping ideas, she is used to being able to ace tests and zip through classwork. So that completing a set number of tasks on her own that she'd rather not perform is the only way she will learn to organize her time, prioritize and develop intellectual discipline. I really think that is true of most bright kids, though it would be good if the homework is also challenging to the child.

Sorry for the hijack

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See that's the issue. If there's a compelling reason (whether it's a teacher's reason or a parent's reason is irrelevant) for the assignment then it's NOT busywork. According to you, she needs it to learn how to budget time. There's a valid reason for it. It's part of the reason I didn't have a problem doing research papers or long term projects. Those weren't 100% pointless.

RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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But Richard you said you tested really well. Had you done your homework could you have not had better grades and perhaps earned yourself an academic scholarship?

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If busywork had been counted properly (in otherwords, not counted at all)... yes, I would have gotten better grades and (probably) qualified for a scholarship. I've never said otherwise.

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I know. 

 

 

RichardInTN wrote:

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Courtesy of not being a minority race, nor being a (supposedly) oppressed gender, and not having parents that were poor enough (never mind that they weren't supporting me after I turned 18)... College wasn't an option for me

 

 

 

It is interesting the reasons you originally gave for not going to school versus taking accountability for your role in that.  Someone might think you are blaming the minority female (the supposedly oppressed) for you not going to school versus looking at yourself. 

 

-- Edited by Forty-two on Friday 16th of November 2012 08:24:35 AM

RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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huckleberry wrote:

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Eichard, I surely do not want to have that argument with you again, but I've been thinking about that thread recently.

Small Huck is a smart kid. She gets bored easily, which is one of the reasons I moved her to public school, where there is a gifted program and she will be challenged by the level of work.

But what you call "busywork" is actually quite necessary for her. Because she is so quick at grasping ideas, she is used to being able to ace tests and zip through classwork. So that completing a set number of tasks on her own that she'd rather not perform is the only way she will learn to organize her time, prioritize and develop intellectual discipline. I really think that is true of most bright kids, though it would be good if the homework is also challenging to the child.

Sorry for the hijack

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See that's the issue. If there's a compelling reason (whether it's a teacher's reason or a parent's reason is irrelevant) for the assignment then it's NOT busywork. According to you, she needs it to learn how to budget time. There's a valid reason for it. It's part of the reason I didn't have a problem doing research papers or long term projects. Those weren't 100% pointless.

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I think regardless of the pointlessness of the homework, if nothing else, it teaches kids authority and if you want to thwart authority and not do what you are told, have at it; but, your grades suffer and your life may not end up optimally because of it. 

I think this is all a parenting issue and what parents teach or support as important.

And folks please stop apologizing for the highjack this is not a silly highjack to talk about cookies or cake, we are having an interesting fruitful conversation.  I find it interesting and so what if we have veared off-topic it is still a good conversation, that is what we are here for aren't we?

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Then my Father taught me well. My Father taught me that wasting time was a poor use of time. And you are right... it does teach about authority... specifically the ability of some to abuse authority.

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 I would say it was not a waste of time in that it would have helped you get into college, if getting into college was your goal. I think most students, rather than finding intrinsic value in homework, see its value in its role in achieving a larger goal.

I have sympathy for your point of view, because many things in both school and outside of it feel like pointless wastes of time. But, part of getting by in school, getting into school, and also being employed is meeting the requirements that are set out for you, even if they seem pointless to you. And in some situations you may be able to influence those requirements or how they are weighed, in many you will not.

Most of us do things we don't want to do, and which hold no intrinsic value for us, to meet the requirements of a situation which will result in things in which we do find value - a degree,  a salary, or whatever. 

We all have different priorities, so I understand that for you it wasn't a worthwhile trade-off. I have sympathy for your point of view, which I think mirrors some of the things I feel about paid work, but we also have accept the consequences of taking these stances.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 16th of November 2012 10:34:27 AM

Forty-two wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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But Richard you said you tested really well. Had you done your homework could you have not had better grades and perhaps earned yourself an academic scholarship?

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If busywork had been counted properly (in otherwords, not counted at all)... yes, I would have gotten better grades and (probably) qualified for a scholarship. I've never said otherwise.

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I know. 

 

 

RichardInTN wrote:

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Courtesy of not being a minority race, nor being a (supposedly) oppressed gender, and not having parents that were poor enough (never mind that they weren't supporting me after I turned 18)... College wasn't an option for me

 

It is interesting the reasons you originally gave for not going to school versus taking accountability for your role in that.  Someone might think you are blaming the minority female (the supposedly oppressed) for you not going to school versus looking at yourself. 

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As I said, Those were all things that were against me that I had absolutely ZERO control over me not qualifying for. There was no way for me to become female, there was no way for me to become a minority, there was no way for me to make my parents poor enough for me to qualify based on that.

Even though it was wrong for the busywork to be counted against me... I could have done something about that. So I accept the small part that I DID have to play in that. Sometimes when you do the right thing, you get penalized for it.

RichardInTN wrote:

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huckleberry wrote:

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Eichard, I surely do not want to have that argument with you again, but I've been thinking about that thread recently.

Small Huck is a smart kid. She gets bored easily, which is one of the reasons I moved her to public school, where there is a gifted program and she will be challenged by the level of work.

But what you call "busywork" is actually quite necessary for her. Because she is so quick at grasping ideas, she is used to being able to ace tests and zip through classwork. So that completing a set number of tasks on her own that she'd rather not perform is the only way she will learn to organize her time, prioritize and develop intellectual discipline. I really think that is true of most bright kids, though it would be good if the homework is also challenging to the child.

Sorry for the hijack

---

See that's the issue. If there's a compelling reason (whether it's a teacher's reason or a parent's reason is irrelevant) for the assignment then it's NOT busywork. According to you, she needs it to learn how to budget time. There's a valid reason for it. It's part of the reason I didn't have a problem doing research papers or long term projects. Those weren't 100% pointless.

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 I actually agree that there is probably too much pointless busywork in school. But as far as the above point, a teacher can't be expected to tailor curriculum to each student, nor to necessarily know which student needs help with which study skills, especially if that student refuses to do the work in the first place. And part of what a teacher wants to see is that you can follow instructions, meet deadlines etc. regardless of your feelings about or proficiency of the material being covered. Those are things you will need to do in college as well.

Again, I do relate to your POV, because life is full of things that we have to do for no good reason other the compliance necessary to get by in life, and that does stink. In that sense, school is also meant to teach students this compliance which they will probably need for the rest of their lives.

Cactus wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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huckleberry wrote:

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Eichard, I surely do not want to have that argument with you again, but I've been thinking about that thread recently.

Small Huck is a smart kid. She gets bored easily, which is one of the reasons I moved her to public school, where there is a gifted program and she will be challenged by the level of work.

But what you call "busywork" is actually quite necessary for her. Because she is so quick at grasping ideas, she is used to being able to ace tests and zip through classwork. So that completing a set number of tasks on her own that she'd rather not perform is the only way she will learn to organize her time, prioritize and develop intellectual discipline. I really think that is true of most bright kids, though it would be good if the homework is also challenging to the child.

Sorry for the hijack

---

See that's the issue. If there's a compelling reason (whether it's a teacher's reason or a parent's reason is irrelevant) for the assignment then it's NOT busywork. According to you, she needs it to learn how to budget time. There's a valid reason for it. It's part of the reason I didn't have a problem doing research papers or long term projects. Those weren't 100% pointless.

---

I think regardless of the pointlessness of the homework, if nothing else, it teaches kids authority and if you want to thwart authority and not do what you are told, have at it; but, your grades suffer and your life may not end up optimally because of it. 

I think this is all a parenting issue and what parents teach or support as important.

And folks please stop apologizing for the highjack this is not a silly highjack to talk about cookies or cake, we are having an interesting fruitful conversation.  I find it interesting and so what if we have veared off-topic it is still a good conversation, that is what we are here for aren't we?

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Then my Father taught me well. My Father taught me that wasting time was a poor use of time. And you are right... it does teach about authority... specifically the ability of some to abuse authority.

---

 I would say it was not a waste of time in that it would have helped you get into college, if getting into college was your goal. I think most students, rather than finding intrinsic value in homework, see its value in its role in achieving a larger goal.

I have sympathy for your point of view, because many things in both school and outside of it feel like pointless wastes of time. But, part of getting by in school, getting into school, and also being employed is meeting the requirements that are set out for you, even if they seem pointless to you. And in some situations you may be able to influence those requirements or how they are weighed, in many you will not.

Most of us do things we don't want to do, and which hold no intrinsic value for us, to meet the requirements of a situation which will result in things in which we do find value - a degree,  a salary, or whatever. 

We all have different priorities, so I understand that for you it wasn't a worthwhile trade-off. I have sympathy for your point of view, which I think mirrors some of the things I feel about paid work, but we also have accept the consequences of taking these stances.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 16th of November 2012 10:34:27 AM

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I think doing the "busy work" may teach the kid an important lesson like you mentioned.  You gotta do what you gotta do to get ahead.  I don't know about Richard but for my career I have done a **** load of things that are a waste of time to get ahead.  If I didn't I damned sure would not be in the place of my career that I am today.

This is a lesson we are teaching our kids.  They can chose to do their homework or not no matter how "boring" they think it is (I use the word boring because that was my son's excuse when he was four for not doing his homework) but if they don't do it there are dire consequences for not doing so.

Huck

RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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But Richard you said you tested really well. Had you done your homework could you have not had better grades and perhaps earned yourself an academic scholarship?

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If busywork had been counted properly (in otherwords, not counted at all)... yes, I would have gotten better grades and (probably) qualified for a scholarship. I've never said otherwise.

---

I know. 

 

 

RichardInTN wrote:

---

Courtesy of not being a minority race, nor being a (supposedly) oppressed gender, and not having parents that were poor enough (never mind that they weren't supporting me after I turned 18)... College wasn't an option for me

 

It is interesting the reasons you originally gave for not going to school versus taking accountability for your role in that.  Someone might think you are blaming the minority female (the supposedly oppressed) for you not going to school versus looking at yourself. 

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As I said, Those were all things that were against me that I had absolutely ZERO control over me not qualifying for. There was no way for me to become female, there was no way for me to become a minority, there was no way for me to make my parents poor enough for me to qualify based on that.

Even though it was wrong for the busywork to be counted against me... I could have done something about that. So I accept the small part that I DID have to play in that. Sometimes when you do the right thing, you get penalized for it.

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You REALLY think your grades have a small part in you getting into college?

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I never said my grades were a small part. I said MY part was a small part.

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 Well YOUR part, the big part of getting into college, would be YOUR grades.