Invisapeeps 2.0

Cactus · Senior Member

From the Root: I Want to Change My "Ghetto" Name

Aqua · Veteran Member

Papa Bear wrote:
Cactus wrote:
I thought this was an interesting article:
http://www.theroot.com/views/i-hate-my-ghetto-name-can-i-change-it
It appears to be not only common, but rather accepted, to discriminate based on names.
Obviously, some people are simply racist or classist, so will, for example, not consider a resume with a name that suggests the applicant is black or from a lower class. But there are others who would claim they are neither racist nor classist and that they would not discriminate against a person-in hiring or other things-on these grounds, yet still express open dislke, contempt, or mockery of names like Shaniqua etc.
When people express dislike of or contempt towards something, there is often an underlying class or racial (or other) issue, which goes unacknowledged or unchallenged.
While it has become less socially acceptable to openly discriminate against people based purely on race, class, gender, sexual orientation, religion etc, it seems quite widely accepted to discriminate against people based on traits strongly associated with a particular race, class, gender, orientation and so on.
What are your thoughts?
Give children standard, regular names. Problem solved.

I would tend to agree. I know the prejudices exist. If I planned on children, I'd plan on trying to give them a good start, and part of that is, IMO, giving a classic name that won't raise eyebrows.

Is that technically right in that it helps to combat such attitudes? No, but I wouldn't really care, on a practical level.

-- Edited by Aqua on Friday 17th of May 2013 02:49:33 PM

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:
What is inherently wrong with names associated with the inner city? Assuming one likes the name itself, isn't the bigotry of others the only reason to avoid it? And isn't the decision of what and how much to compromise to avoid such bigotry a personal choice? Why the contempt?

The debasement of the perceived worth, resulting from university admission policies. Is the short answer.

If a single standard for college admissions applied to everyone, every resume listing a college education would be perceived as more-or-less equal (accounting for the field). But this isn't the case. At some schools (Michigan comes to mind), it's something like 10x easier for blacks to be admitted than whites; 10x easier for whites to be admitted than Asians.

That doesn't mean the black students were 100x smarter than Asian or 10x smarter than white. It does mean that someone was trying to over-represent or under-represent whichever groups.

If a potential employer declines the resume for "Shaniqua Jackson, B.A. Arizona State University," that's not necessarily bigotry toward the candidate. It does however raise a fair question: Was this B.A. made possible because of the raw talent necessary for undergraduate work? Or was it made possible because of someone's admissions quota? Does the employer want to take a chance?

Outside of academia (and perhaps the government), the real world doesn't do quotas. Anyone who is perceived to have achieved because of them forever has credentials questioned. That is the problem.

I for one wish admission quotas would just go away.

ETA: And as I said up-thread, this is a horrible deal for "Shaniqua Jackson." Maybe she really was the most brilliant member of her class. But because of the admissions policies, her perceived worth will forever be tainted. It would be wonderful if we could get these silly anomaly policies out of academia, but in the short run she's much better served being just Shania or Shannon. (Or Ms. Jackson if you're nasty.)

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Friday 17th of May 2013 07:44:57 PM

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

My thoughts?

It's your name and it's your life.

My mother gave me a very classic name. She named me after the heroine in Ivanhoe.

I've never read Ivanhoe and I don't plan on reading it. I don't care for the heroine's name so I changed it.

She gave me a first name from classic literature and then she gave me what could be considered a 'ghetto' middle name and I had an Irish last name. I'm not Irish by the way I'm Black.

When I was 16 I simply stopped going by the name my mother gave me. I dropped the middle name but kept the initial. I changed my first name to another classic name, one that I felt suited me better. Unfortunately my new first name combined with my old last name made me sound even more Irish.

I married at 18 so my new name changed within a few years to a much less Irish sounding name that I'm very happy with it.

Not that I have anything against Irish names in case it came out sounding that way. I just think that changing your name is so easy that no one should ever struggle with a name they don't like.

In fact I gave all of my kids weird first names and normal middle names on purpose. I always told them they could choose either name or they could pick something else. So far they've all kept the weird names. They seem to like them.

At one point my when my 2nd daughter was about 7 she wanted to be called Vannessa Rainbow but that didn't last.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:
I thought this was an interesting article:
http://www.theroot.com/views/i-hate-my-ghetto-name-can-i-change-it
It appears to be not only common, but rather accepted, to discriminate based on names.
Obviously, some people are simply racist or classist, so will, for example, not consider a resume with a name that suggests the applicant is black or from a lower class. But there are others who would claim they are neither racist nor classist and that they would not discriminate against a person-in hiring or other things-on these grounds, yet still express open dislke, contempt, or mockery of names like Shaniqua etc.
When people express dislike of or contempt towards something, there is often an underlying class or racial (or other) issue, which goes unacknowledged or unchallenged.
While it has become less socially acceptable to openly discriminate against people based purely on race, class, gender, sexual orientation, religion etc, it seems quite widely accepted to discriminate against people based on traits strongly associated with a particular race, class, gender, orientation and so on.
What are your thoughts?

Give children standard, regular names. Problem solved.

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

No offense intended here. But I associate certain names with certain cultures. And for me, names like "Deshawn" and "Shaniqua" are associated with a culture found in inner cities that does not value hard work, nice manners, education, etc. I have never met a well-spoken, well-dressed, professional man named "Deshawn".

winds55 · Guru

I see too many uncommon names, from all ethnicities and 'class'es to ever make an assumption about what someone's background is. Besides, it's not a person's fault what their parents named them.

I don't know anyone who discriminates based on names - it wouldn't fly at any of the companies I've worked for, and I've done HR work for some of the strictest people I've known. A typo on your resume or cover letter? Not going to consider you. Name? Only concern is 'how do I pronounce it when I call them for an interview?'.

Cactus · Senior Member

Is is right to assume things about a person based on their name or background? So what if they are from the inner city? Is that a good reason not to hire someone? Why judge them based on their name OR the fact that they are from a particular 'culture" especially if you have other criteria, for example in the resume that contains much more information than just their name?

Even people whose backgrounds might not prepare them well for some environments or professional life can often overcome these disadvantages, if people give them a chance and do not add to the disadvantages they face by judging them based on something over which they have no control.

Rationally, don't we know that a person with any name can be intelligent, honest, hard working, professional and so on?

I have worked with many people with "ghetto" names and they have been no different from anyone else.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Thank you, Banana

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Classic names can suck too though.

Cactus · Senior Member

I think the woman in the article should do whatever she wants. It's a personal choice.

And of course parents are being pragmatic in giving their kids "standard' name. But I would not say that solves any problems.

If anything it sidesteps them, or even perpetuates them. This is not to blame people for giving their children standard names. But in some cases it is a compromise. It is a personal choice, but not necessarily a neutral one. Some may experience it has a purely practical matter but for others it may not be.

The very fact that there is racial and class based discrimination against certain names can make it a matter of principle and not just practicality.

And I do wonder why there seems to be more judgement of parents who give their children "bad" names then there is of those who discriminate against them.

Aqua · Veteran Member

dqm either wrote:
Classic names can suck too though.

That's true. I'm not a fan of all of them either, and some of them do sound very dated.

I should clarify that to say names that have stood the test of time. Conventional, or as PB says, standard.

There's nothing inherently wrong with names that fall out of that category, and I prefer not to use the term "ghetto" myself, but certainly I'm aware of the connotations of LaShawn versus Jonathan, and I'm happy to err on the safer side of that choice.

Cactus · Senior Member

There are definitely names that have fallen out of favor but I am not sure of negative consequences of having those names-a young person with an "old lady" name for example. Would the person experience unconscious age bias even if know to actually be young?

(As a side note, I actually quite like many such "old lady" names. I don't have or want children but if I did I would like giving them names like "Mildred" or "Gertrude".)

Aqua · Veteran Member

Cactus wrote:
There are definitely names that have fallen out of favor but I am not sure of negative consequences of having those names-a young person with an "old lady" name for example. Would the person experience unconscious age bias even if know to actually be young?

(As a side note, I actually quite like many such "old lady" names. I don't have or want children but if I did I would like giving them names like "Mildred" or "Gertrude".)

I'm not a fan of those particular names personally, but I love Eva, Esther, and Alma, to name a few! So I see what you are saying.

And there may well be bias. Certainly they might get some double takes.

Re your earlier post, I'm left wondering what the solution is if giving a "standard" name perpetuates the bias. Of course (as you mention) people are not wrong to pick those names, but then how to make up for that slowing factor in diminishing that sort of prejudice?

Cactus · Senior Member

I don't think there is a simple solution. But to clarify, I don't think the burden should rest with those who face the discrimination to sacrifice potential professional or social success for the sake of the principle. It's a personal choice and I wouldn't blame anyone for their choice.

Cactus · Senior Member

Gertrude and Mildred in particular are not my favorites but I do really like the idea of a baby with one of those names.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:

I don't think there is a simple solution. But to clarify, I don't think the burden should rest with those who face the discrimination to sacrifice potential professional or social success for the sake of the principle. It's a personal choice and I wouldn't blame anyone for their choice.

I agree. The burden lies with the foolish parents who are artificially creating obstacles for their children to make some kind of point.

By the by, if actual Africans from Africa had names like "Shaniqua" and "Deshawn" and "Latrell" and "Neveah Telaphonia" and "Tupac Quo'shawn X", you would have a stronger point. However, I have met a great many immigrants from Kenya and Somalia, and our partner congregation (one of them) is in Tanzania. I've never heard such names. Who I do meet and come across are names like Olumide and Mutumbo and Munene. (And Barack.)

The names being discriminated against aren't "classic." They are some parent's idea of making a statement, and I have nothing but contempt for them. I have nothing but sympathy for kids put into such a pickle. Their best strategy, probably, is to find a standard-sounding nickname. Shaniqua can go as Shannon; Deshawn can go as Shawn (or Sean), so forth.

winds55 · Guru

OpheliaDev1 wrote:
No offense intended here. But I associate certain names with certain cultures. And for me, names like "Deshawn" and "Shaniqua" are associated with a culture found in inner cities that does not value hard work, nice manners, education, etc. I have never met a well-spoken, well-dressed, professional man named "Deshawn".

And I've never met a well-spoken, well-dressed, professional man named Bob. I have, however, met a hell of a lot of obnoxious, arrogant, passive agressive men with that name.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Seriously? you have contempt for my mother for giving me a ghetto name?

You don't even know my mother. I think you should save up your contempt for people that deserve it like terrorist and child rapists.

winds55 · Guru

I thought you had a classic name, dqm.

Cactus · Senior Member

I've worked in many offices, and have had many coworkers, of various names, races, and backgrounds, who were not well spoken, well dressed, or well mannered. Many were still good workers whose positions didn't require those qualities.
And of course I have also had coworkers who were lazy, irresponsible, and pushed work onto others as much as possible. There has also been no correlation I could notice with name, race or background.

Cactus · Senior Member

winds55 wrote:
I thought you had a classic name, dqm.

I think she said she has a stereotypically "ghetto" middle name.

Aqua · Veteran Member

Papa Bear wrote:
Cactus wrote:

I don't think there is a simple solution. But to clarify, I don't think the burden should rest with those who face the discrimination to sacrifice potential professional or social success for the sake of the principle. It's a personal choice and I wouldn't blame anyone for their choice.
I agree. The burden lies with the foolish parents who are artificially creating obstacles for their children to make some kind of point.
By the by, if actual Africans from Africa had names like "Shaniqua" and "Deshawn" and "Latrell" and "Neveah Telaphonia" and "Tupac Quo'shawn X", you would have a stronger point. However, I have met a great many immigrants from Kenya and Somalia, and our partner congregation (one of them) is in Tanzania. I've never heard such names. Who I do meet and come across are names like Olumide and Mutumbo and Munene. (And Barack.)
The names being discriminated against aren't "classic." They are some parent's idea of making a statement, and I have nothing but contempt for them. I have nothing but sympathy for kids put into such a pickle. Their best strategy, probably, is to find a standard-sounding nickname. Shaniqua can go as Shannon; Deshawn can go as Shawn (or Sean), so forth.

I'm not okay with calling them foolish. I'm not sure I think that's necessarily true.

I'm just risk averse and would choose a name accordingly. It doesn't automatically follow that someone less risk averse is foolish.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

dqm either wrote:
Seriously? you have contempt for my mother for giving me a ghetto name?

You don't even know my mother. I think you should save up your contempt for people that deserve it like terrorist and child rapists.

My contempt isn't zero-sum. Thesse days, there's plenty to go around.

Why did you drop the aforementioned name? Is it easier to get along without it?

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Aqua: In my book, creating an unnecessary risk of any kind for a child is foolish. I can agree to disagree on that point.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

I've also met many an African immigrant with names like:

Poverty
Fatma
Jungwe

I'd much rather be named Shanika than Poverty. Jungwe was called Jungle and Fatma is unfortunately a rather large girl.

Having a "real" African name is no safeguard from the name snobs.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Papa Bear wrote:
dqm either wrote:
Seriously? you have contempt for my mother for giving me a ghetto name?

You don't even know my mother. I think you should save up your contempt for people that deserve it like terrorist and child rapists.
My contempt isn't zero-sum. Thesse days, there's plenty to go around.
Why did you drop the aforementioned name? Is it easier to get along without it?

I dropped it because I thought having a middle initial but no middle name would make me more interesting. *decision made at age 16 when things like that seemed important.

I always go by

D
Q.
M

I'm constantly getting asked what the Q. stands for (Q is actually my real middle initial and it intrigues people)

Technically I dropped three names not just one.

I dropped my classic first name because -I didn't like it-. But I picked up another classic first name to replace it so I can't say one is easier than the other. I simply prefer the name I chose over the one my mother chose for me.

I dropped my 'ghetto' middle name because I thought the initial was more interesting than the name.

I dropped my Irish last name to take my husbands generic English derived last name.

My new name(s) isn't/aren't any easier or harder to live with than my old name(s). I simply prefer being called Deb Q. Miller

to Dorianna Quantay O'Malley.

None of those are my real names.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

winds55 wrote:
I thought you had a classic name, dqm.

My parents gave me three names.

One is from a classic piece of literature and also the name of a tree.
One could be considered 'ghetto'
One is traditionally Irish

I changed all of them to something I like better.

I in turn gave each of my kids three names.

First names are all 'weird'
Middle names are all 'classic'
Last names are all generic derived from English.

Even so I have been told that the middle name I gave one of my daughters is a 'hippie' name and not really classic.

Her middle name is Dawn. blankstare

What I took away from that is that parents should name their kids whatever they want because someone is going to have something to say about it no matter what so you may as well do what makes you happy.

Cactus · Senior Member

What is inherently wrong with names associated with the inner city? Assuming one likes the name itself, isn't the bigotry of others the only reason to avoid it? And isn't the decision of what and how much to compromise to avoid such bigotry a personal choice? Why the contempt?

winds55 · Guru

dqm either wrote:
winds55 wrote:
I thought you had a classic name, dqm.
My parents gave me three names.
One is from a classic piece of literature and also the name of a tree.
One could be considered 'ghetto'
One is traditionally Irish

I changed all of them to something I like better.
I in turn gave each of my kids three names.
First names are all 'weird'
Middle names are all 'classic'
Last names are all generic derived from English.
Even so I have been told that the middle name I gave one of my daughters is a 'hippie' name and not really classic.
Her middle name is Dawn.
What I took away from that is that parents should name their kids whatever they want because someone is going to have something to say about it no matter what so you may as well do what makes you happy.

I missed the middle 'ghetto' name part, DQM. Sorry.

And as long as your daughter's first name isn't Delta, I don't know how someone decided Dawn is a 'hippie' name. I guess it just goes to prove your last sentence.

My mother-in-law objected to our second son's name(s) because it was too Catholic. I didn't even know the first and middle were even considered 'Catholic' - I suppose I should have named him Pope to really rile her up.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:
What is inherently wrong with names associated with the inner city? Assuming one likes the name itself, isn't the bigotry of others the only reason to avoid it? And isn't the decision of what and how much to compromise to avoid such bigotry a personal choice? Why the contempt?

My contempt goes to any parent who consciously introduces a hardship to a child. It was meant as a sentiment more general than "with the inner city."

Case in point. On August 8, 1988 (you know, 8/8/88) a local family here made the news by naming their daughter "Keight." Rhymes with Kate, but wasn't it just the bees knees that she was born on that date, they had to name her that. Yeah, I'm sticking with conte,pt.

Incidentally, this isn't the only stripe of bigotry out there. If a job posting goes up for "system analyst," and two candidates are John Miller and Lee Phong, guess who has a better shot.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Inorite...

I asked him if Eve was a hippie name and he said no. So I said how is Dawn a hippie name then? And he said Eve is in the Bible and when you think of Eve you don't think of hippies you think of Adam and Eve.

When you hear the name Dawn you think of names like Morning, Sky, Star and other hippie stuff so Dawn is a hippie name because it makes you think of hippie stuff.

-?REALLY?- I had no idea that mornings and hippies were so closely associated. I swear I thought hippies were better known for poor fashion choices, cheap drugs, free sex and a lack of personal hygeine.

The guy who said this is named Brandon if anyone could care to register that as the name of a complete dumbsh!t.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Papa Bear wrote:
Cactus wrote:
What is inherently wrong with names associated with the inner city? Assuming one likes the name itself, isn't the bigotry of others the only reason to avoid it? And isn't the decision of what and how much to compromise to avoid such bigotry a personal choice? Why the contempt?
My contempt goes to any parent who consciously introduces a hardship to a child. It was meant as a sentiment more general than "with the inner city."
Case in point. On August 8, 1988 (you know, 8/8/88) a local family here made the news by naming their daughter "Keight." Rhymes with Kate, but wasn't it just the bees knees that she was born on that date, they had to name her that. Yeah, I'm sticking with conte,pt.
Incidentally, this isn't the only stripe of bigotry out there. If a job posting goes up for "system analyst," and two candidates are John Miller and Lee Phong, guess who has a better shot.

Being the non bigot that I am I have no clue?

I assume that the one who gives the better interview has the better shot.

winds55 · Guru

Considering that Bill Gates made his gazillions from Microsoft, and Steve Jobs at Apple, I don't think the perceived tech bigotry is quite there.

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

I agree - it isn't fair that people with "ghetto" names may be discriminated against. But it's also not fair that attractive women find work more easily than plain or unattractive women, that many people prefer not to hire older people or moms, that tall men tend to be paid better than shorter men doing the same work.

"Fair" has very little to do with the real world. So if you're a young person with a name with undesirable associations, it's probably to your advantage to change it, go by your initials, etc. That name might be Shaniqua or Bambi or River Skydragon or Deshawn or Hans Solo or Sexfruit.

ToroD · Newbie

I`ve never liked my first name, It`s a very (to me) old fashioned name. I` shortened it to a name I did like, some people still call me by my given name and it makes me cringe. I gave all 3 of my boys 'normal' American first names. DH is Italian so they all 3 have very classic Italian middle names and our last name is Italian.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Papa Bear wrote:
My contempt goes to any parent who consciously introduces a hardship to a child.

So if two midgets get married and have a midget baby you have contempt for them because they made a conscious descision to bring a child into a life of hardship?

If you have the same contempt for terrorists and child rapists as you do for people with kids who have hardships your contempt is pretty worthless.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

dqm either wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
My contempt goes to any parent who consciously introduces a hardship to a child.
So if two midgets get married and have a midget baby you have contempt for them because they made a conscious descision to bring a child into a life of hardship?
If you have the same contempt for terrorists and child rapists as you do for people with kids who have hardships your contempt is pretty worthless.

I guess I'm not being clear. My contempt goes to those who deliberately, consciously, add a hardship (however defined) that doesn't need to be there. Every child I have ever met, at any age, either was in a hardship of some kind or had one later in life. (I've never met the Hiltons.)

In your example, if the Littles fall in love and get married, and then choose to have child come what may, that's one thing. They're doing what any other couple does. If they chose to take drugs that ensured that their child would be midget, yes that would earn them contempt for me.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

OpheliaDev1 wrote:
I agree - it isn't fair that people with "ghetto" names may be discriminated against. But it's also not fair that attractive women find work more easily than plain or unattractive women, that many people prefer not to hire older people or moms, that tall men tend to be paid better than shorter men doing the same work.

"Fair" has very little to do with the real world. So if you're a young person with a name with undesirable associations, it's probably to your advantage to change it, go by your initials, etc. That name might be Shaniqua or Bambi or River Skydragon or Deshawn or Hans Solo or Sexfruit.

Thank you, Ophelia.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

dqm either wrote:
Inorite...

I asked him if Eve was a hippie name and he said no. So I said how is Dawn a hippie name then? And he said Eve is in the Bible and when you think of Eve you don't think of hippies you think of Adam and Eve.

When you hear the name Dawn you think of names like Morning, Sky, Star and other hippie stuff so Dawn is a hippie name because it makes you think of hippie stuff.

-?REALLY?- I had no idea that mornings and hippies were so closely associated. I swear I thought hippies were better known for poor fashion choices, cheap drugs, free sex and a lack of personal hygeine.

The guy who said this is named Brandon if anyone could care to register that as the name of a complete dumbsh!t.

I think of "EVE Online" (the MMORPG)... But I admit I may think differently than most people. The Bible is RARELY my reference point of comparison.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

OpheliaDev1 wrote:
I agree - it isn't fair that people with "ghetto" names may be discriminated against. But it's also not fair that attractive women find work more easily than plain or unattractive women, that many people prefer not to hire older people or moms, that tall men tend to be paid better than shorter men doing the same work.

"Fair" has very little to do with the real world. So if you're a young person with a name with undesirable associations, it's probably to your advantage to change it, go by your initials, etc. That name might be Shaniqua or Bambi or River Skydragon or Deshawn or Hans Solo or Sexfruit.

That was worded VERY well. And I agree 1,000%.

Cactus · Senior Member

I kind of had the same reaction as winds.

PBJ, I have noticed through the years that you often seem to have something you really want to say, an argument you want to make, and instead of just stating it outright, you frame it as though you are as answering or asking a question, or addressing something someone else has said, when you really aren't.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 18th of May 2013 10:40:13 AM

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:
Aqua wrote:
Cactus wrote:

I kind of had the same reaction as winds.

PBJ, I have noticed through the years that you often seem to have something you really want to say, an argument you want to make, and instead of just stating it outright, you frame it as though you are as answering or asking a question, or addressing something someone else has said, when you really aren't.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 18th of May 2013 10:40:13 AM
To be fair, I do know a lot of people who do this offline.
Is it necessarily good communication? No. But I know people who do it.
That's true. He is certainly not alone.
The point here I suppose is that I can't keep responding as though he is responding to what I (and others) am saying when I don't think he is and creating a facade of conversation just to give him a platform. Of course I think he should say whatever he wants to say and doesn't need this pretense.

Cactus

Your question: "What is inherently wrong with names from the inner city?"

My answer: From the standpoint of the hiring manager, the quotas from universities serve only to debase the perceived worth of the beneficiaries of such a system. In today's system, the biggest beneficiaries are black.

From where I sit, I answered your question.

On the matter of bigotry: We will have a color-blind society only when we have color-blind rules. I am in favor of abolishing all racial quotas, anywhere.

ETA: What question should I be answering that I'm not?

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Saturday 18th of May 2013 01:32:33 PM

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Seriously though.

By "color-blind society," I mean one that does not distinguish between races as a matter of law. Distinguish for age or gender? Sure. Ability or disability? Sure. Citizenship? Absolutely. Racial makeup or ancestry? No.

ETA: And honestly, we should have settled it in 1964. But no.

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Saturday 18th of May 2013 01:53:32 PM

winds55 · Guru

No offense, but I can't decide if some of you are being deliberately obtuse, argumentative, or are truly that bigotted.

Such ugliness from people who should know better.

Aqua · Veteran Member

winds55 wrote:
No offense, but I can't decide if some of you are being deliberately obtuse, argumentative, or are truly that bigotted.

Such ugliness from people who should know better.

I'm definitely obtuse then because I can't tell if you're including me!

Aqua · Veteran Member

Cactus wrote:

I kind of had the same reaction as winds.

PBJ, I have noticed through the years that you often seem to have something you really want to say, an argument you want to make, and instead of just stating it outright, you frame it as though you are as answering or asking a question, or addressing something someone else has said, when you really aren't.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 18th of May 2013 10:40:13 AM

To be fair, I do know a lot of people who do this offline.

Is it necessarily good communication? No. But I know people who do it.

Cactus · Senior Member

Aqua wrote:
Cactus wrote:

I kind of had the same reaction as winds.

PBJ, I have noticed through the years that you often seem to have something you really want to say, an argument you want to make, and instead of just stating it outright, you frame it as though you are as answering or asking a question, or addressing something someone else has said, when you really aren't.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 18th of May 2013 10:40:13 AM
To be fair, I do know a lot of people who do this offline.
Is it necessarily good communication? No. But I know people who do it.

That's true. He is certainly not alone.

The point here I suppose is that I can't keep responding as though he is responding to what I (and others) am saying when I don't think he is and creating a facade of conversation just to give him a platform. Of course I think he should say whatever he wants to say and doesn't need this pretense.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:

I kind of had the same reaction as winds.

PBJ, I have noticed through the years that you often seem to have something you really want to say, an argument you want to make, and instead of just stating it outright, you frame it as though you are as answering or asking a question, or addressing something someone else has said, when you really aren't.

-- Edited by Cactus on Saturday 18th of May 2013 10:40:13 AM

I'm sorry if I'm being unclear, but I'm not hiding any point.

I am saying outright (as much as I can), if inner-city names are being avoided on resumes, it's probably a consequence of racial quotas in universities. How much more concise was that supposed to be?

Aqua · Veteran Member

I can't speak for others on the thread, but I do not see a colorblind society as a good.

I see it as a way to whitewash people and subtly force assimilation in the name of "enlightenment" - said enlightenment being false.