Invisapeeps 2.0

Forty-two · Guru

Ok White Sisters I have to ask

EmmDee · Guru

Sorry, but I laughed that people are calling you by the wrong name, I really do apologize. I don't know, maybe it is because they feel that sexism is less taboo than racism so admitting that racism is still alive makes them feel guilt? I personally think I would be less skeptical of a black person suspecting racism since it is not something I have experienced than I would be of a woman suspecting sexism since I can relate and may think it is an over reaction.

Forty-two · Guru

MD al of the freakin time or mixing up all of the black women at work (I shouldn't say all like there are a ton of us, maybe five) some fat, thin, short tall yet they mix us up. I really want to punch people when they call me by the name of another black woman.

Balloon Animal · Guru

haha
probably because sexism is still probably more rampant than racism in certain areas or fields? Just my shot in the dark.

Forty-two · Guru

Balloon Animal wrote:
haha
probably because sexism is still probably more rampant than racism in certain areas or fields? Just my shot in the dark.

But that's crazy for a white woman to know or assume racism is less rampant that sexism when she doesn't experience it. That's like a man acting like sexism doesn't exist.

winds55 · Guru

Men act like sexism doesn't exist all the time. Hell, a lot of women act that way, too.

Can't explain the name thing - does it help to know Samuel L Jackson got interview questions that made it obvious the guy had him confused with Laurence Fishburn?

ana · Senior Member

When you find out let me know, ok?

Forty-two · Guru

No why would that help? I know it is rampant white people thinking we all look alike, that was the point of the thread.

ana · Senior Member

I guess actually LOOKING at the person you are addressing is too much to ask. Just a cursory glance is all that is required I suppose. Quick scan, black woman, first name that pops up.

Disgusting.

winds55 · Guru

Forty-two wrote:
No why would that help? I know it is rampant white people thinking we all look alike, that was the point of the thread.

Oh for **** sake, it was a joke.

ana · Senior Member

winds55 wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
No why would that help? I know it is rampant white people thinking we all look alike, that was the point of the thread.
Oh for **** sake, it was a joke.

Maybe explain the joke to us stupid non-white people? Because I don't find anything funny about it or get it.

Cactus · Senior Member

I guess they don't like feeling implicated or acknowledging their privilege.

Forty-two · Guru

ana wrote:
winds55 wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
No why would that help? I know it is rampant white people thinking we all look alike, that was the point of the thread.
Oh for **** sake, it was a joke.

Maybe explain the joke to us stupid non-white people? Because I don't find anything funny about it or get it.

Ana I guess because a black celebrity experiences this too it is funny. I guess us not whites are too stupid to see th humor in it. But thinking it is funny is quite telling and even expands on the point of my thread. So not only do we think you black people all look alike, it is really a funny thing when it happens. Yep ai laugh all freakin day long when a white person calls me by the name of a another black woman. It is soooo freakin funny

ana · Senior Member

I would be looking at the person using the wrong name in a very different light 42.

Oh, no worries, people have had to explain racist jokes to me like forever! I guess my white funny bone is broken!

EmmDee · Guru

I just want to clarify that it made me laugh that they use the wrong name because of the ridiculousness of it. Now, if it is the same people and they do it to every one, maybe they have a face to name issue. I some times have this but I don't get names to the wrong people, I just can't remember names at all.

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

Well, as a woman I do feel like we've made more progress against racism than we have against sexism. We have a black president, and we've never had a female president or vice president. Black men got the vote before women. First black Supreme Court Justice - 1967. First female Supreme Court Justice - Sandra Day O'Connor, 1981.

The name mix-up - yeah, that's really frustrating. That could be me, though, just b/c names and faces are NOT my strong suit. For example, at my work, there are two black women who work in the same department. It was very easy for me to learn to tell them apart, b/c one had very short hair and one had medium length hair. So if somebody said, "Hey, this is for Kelly," I could say, "Kelly has the very short hair, right?" and they'd say yes or no. For me, names DO NOT stick the first time I meet someone. In another department, there are two white guys who are both similar builds, gray hair, and beards. It took me MUCH longer to learn their names, because somebody might say, "This is for Jim" and I didn't have an easy difference to ask about. I mean, one was taller and had a darker beard, but if I asked that, nobody could really say, b/c they hadn't thought about ways that Jim and Joe were different. And the fact that these guys had names starting with the same first letter didn't help me.

Cactus · Senior Member

Ophelia, I think part of the point is that a white woman is more inclined to see sexism because that's something that directly affects her and she is kind of conditioned towards perceiving it.
I also think it can be misleading to look at things like having a female president. There are other countries that have had female heads of state that have obvious and serious problems with sexism.
But I also don't think you can really quantity which is "worse". I don't think it's productive to try. The point is, why are these white woman of 42's acquaintance - I don't think anyone is saying all white women are like this - so quick to acknowledge sexism and to deny racism?

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 16th of May 2014 09:47:59 AM

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 16th of May 2014 09:48:38 AM

Forty-two · Guru

OD I would by the black people are getting ahead more (yes I know that is not exactly what you said) if black had the same education, jobs, etc as their white counterparts. Blacks are less educated than whites you cannot say that about women being less educated than men. Yes women make less than men and blacks make less than whites so I as a black woman will likely make less than a white woman. People relate to people like them so the black woman in a white environment will be less accepted than the white woman will

Aurora · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
Why oh why is it ok that every thing bad happening to you is because you are a woman but if I suggest for just a second that something bad is happening because i am black I am paranoid? Please explain....oh and at work can you please stop calling me by the name of the other black women.

42, if you figure it out, let me know. But I will say as a white woman, even if I call out racists, I just get told I am a crazy liberal that sees racism, homophobia and sexism everywhere. It seems like no matter what, we can't win.

Forty-two · Guru

Well I never speak about sexism unless I am talking to black men. The some of the white women I associate with a the racism deniers and swear I am being paranoid

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

Cactus wrote:
Ophelia, I think part of the point is that a white woman is more inclined to see sexism because that's something that directly affects her and she is kind of conditioned towards perceiving it.
I also think it can be misleading to look at things like having a female president. There are other countries that have had female heads of state that have obvious and serious problems with sexism.
But I also don't think you can really quantity which is "worse". I don't think it's productive to try. The point is, why are these white woman of 42's acquaintance - I don't think anyone is saying all white women are like this - so quick to acknowledge sexism and to deny racism?

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 16th of May 2014 09:47:59 AM

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 16th of May 2014 09:48:38 AM

Yeah, I think this part of the problem anywhere. I think it's really hard to get discrimination at a gut level until you have experienced it. So as a white woman I am very attuned to sexism, b/c I know what it feels like and what it looks like in subtle, small ways that men, generally speaking, don't.

I also think that people feel defensive and have a knee-jerk response to deny forms of discrimination that don't apply to them.

ana · Senior Member

I think your last sentence summed it up very well OD.

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

And maybe we think of racism and sexism as being deliberately malicious, whereas sometimes discrimination happens becomes of circumstances and it's not deliberate, but it is nonetheless real?

For example, many people complain that comic book heroes are overwhelmingly white men. And that's true. And I don't like it. But do I think Stan Lee (for example) is a racist? Not really. I think that Stan Lee is a white guy and he was creating characters and stories for his audience, mostly made up of white guys. As a woman, I don't like the overly boobtastic, sexified female characters in comic books. But is Stan Lee a sexist? I don't think he's a sexist in that he is maliciously seeking to harm women. I think he's a guy trying to create stuff his audience will buy. But the depiction of females in comic books IS part of the overall problem. But since I object to that, I think it's my responsibility as a consumer to seek out and support comic books that portray women characters in a healthier and more realistic way. (BTW, Fables is awesome for this. Mostly drawn from European fairytales, so it's still pretty white, but better gender diversity.)

So when people say, "Comic books are racist!" my knee-jerk reaction is to reply, "No, they aren't!" (At least Blade got 3 movies and 1 season of a TV series.) Is there a word for discrimination that is not intentional or malicious, but that still exists and is still problematic?

Another BTW - even though it only ran for 1 season, the Blade TV series was really good. Better than the movies, I think. Strong plot. And he's not just a half-vampire guy with a sword. The fact that he is a black half-vampire guy is important in one story arc.

Aurora · Senior Member

OpheliaDev1 wrote:
And maybe we think of racism and sexism as being deliberately malicious, whereas sometimes discrimination happens becomes of circumstances and it's not deliberate, but it is nonetheless real?

For example, many people complain that comic book heroes are overwhelmingly white men. And that's true. And I don't like it. But do I think Stan Lee (for example) is a racist? Not really. I think that Stan Lee is a white guy and he was creating characters and stories for his audience, mostly made up of white guys. As a woman, I don't like the overly boobtastic, sexified female characters in comic books. But is Stan Lee a sexist? I don't think he's a sexist in that he is maliciously seeking to harm women. I think he's a guy trying to create stuff his audience will buy. But the depiction of females in comic books IS part of the overall problem. But since I object to that, I think it's my responsibility as a consumer to seek out and support comic books that portray women characters in a healthier and more realistic way. (BTW, Fables is awesome for this. Mostly drawn from European fairytales, so it's still pretty white, but better gender diversity.)

So when people say, "Comic books are racist!" my knee-jerk reaction is to reply, "No, they aren't!" (At least Blade got 3 movies and 1 season of a TV series.) Is there a word for discrimination that is not intentional or malicious, but that still exists and is still problematic?

Another BTW - even though it only ran for 1 season, the Blade TV series was really good. Better than the movies, I think. Strong plot. And he's not just a half-vampire guy with a sword. The fact that he is a black half-vampire guy is important in one story arc.

It is still racism and sexism even if it is not intentional because it is still harmful.

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

I looked up racism in the dictionary:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I don't think that the comic book publishers meet these criteria. I don't think that, on the whole, they think white people are superior, that their intent is to foster the idea that white people are superior, or that they hate other races.

Now comic books have basically exploded as a multi-million dollar industry with a huge fanbase. But for decades, these characters and stories chugged along, barely paying the bills and keeping the lights on. The writers and artists and company owners were white guys telling stories about mostly white guys to a fanbase that was mostly white guys. Superman and Batman have been around since the 30s. Captain America was created in 1941. The X-men were created in 1963. These characters were created in times where, let's be honest, had they been non-white and non-male, would not have been commercially successful enough to survive.

Aurora · Senior Member

OpheliaDev1 wrote:
I looked up racism in the dictionary:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I don't think that the comic book publishers meet these criteria. I don't think that, on the whole, they think white people are superior, that their intent is to foster the idea that white people are superior, or that they hate other races.

Now comic books have basically exploded as a multi-million dollar industry with a huge fanbase. But for decades, these characters and stories chugged along, barely paying the bills and keeping the lights on. The writers and artists and company owners were white guys telling stories about mostly white guys to a fanbase that was mostly white guys. Superman and Batman have been around since the 30s. Captain America was created in 1941. The X-men were created in 1963. These characters were created in times where, let's be honest, had they been non-white and non-male, would not have been commercially successful enough to survive.

#2 is exactly what was done. There are people clambering for female characters to get a movie (males and females). In fact women watch moves multiple times, on average whereas men only go once. Including women in their target audience aids in increasing income. Yet, it does not cross their minds to do a Storm origins movie (african and female)? Her story is pretty badass. Or wonder woman, another movie that has been asked for, and would bring in a ton of money and was created during that time you posted about. The idea that a female or non-white character would not bring be successful has been shown to be untrue yet it won't be done because of either unconscious or conscious sexism. Just because it is unconscious does not mean it is not sexist. It does foster a culture.

I grew up with these boys, techie and geek have a huge intersection and the culture is very sexist. It does not matter if they intended the affect, they behavior caused it.

Sorry 42, for the hijack.

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

yeah, 42, didn't mean to threadjack. I was using it as an example that grew on its own.

I really want to see a Storm origins movie. But I don't think Halle Berry has what it takes. Maybe the woman who plays Michonne on "The Walking Dead."

Balloon Animal · Guru

OpheliaDev1 wrote:
And maybe we think of racism and sexism as being deliberately malicious, whereas sometimes discrimination happens becomes of circumstances and it's not deliberate, but it is nonetheless real?

For example, many people complain that comic book heroes are overwhelmingly white men. And that's true. And I don't like it. But do I think Stan Lee (for example) is a racist? Not really. I think that Stan Lee is a white guy and he was creating characters and stories for his audience, mostly made up of white guys. As a woman, I don't like the overly boobtastic, sexified female characters in comic books. But is Stan Lee a sexist? I don't think he's a sexist in that he is maliciously seeking to harm women. I think he's a guy trying to create stuff his audience will buy. But the depiction of females in comic books IS part of the overall problem. But since I object to that, I think it's my responsibility as a consumer to seek out and support comic books that portray women characters in a healthier and more realistic way. (BTW, Fables is awesome for this. Mostly drawn from European fairytales, so it's still pretty white, but better gender diversity.)

So when people say, "Comic books are racist!" my knee-jerk reaction is to reply, "No, they aren't!" (At least Blade got 3 movies and 1 season of a TV series.) Is there a word for discrimination that is not intentional or malicious, but that still exists and is still problematic?

Another BTW - even though it only ran for 1 season, the Blade TV series was really good. Better than the movies, I think. Strong plot. And he's not just a half-vampire guy with a sword. The fact that he is a black half-vampire guy is important in one story arc.

very well put.

Cactus · Senior Member

Aurora, I agree with you.

Cactus · Senior Member

Also I don't know the specific examples but it seems like the racism 42 is pointing out to her acquaintances is comparable to the sexism they are observing themselves - things that they see directly affecting them - so I'm not sure a perception of racism and sexism as only being active and intentional could explain the discrepancy she is noting anyway.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 16th of May 2014 04:01:13 PM

aberswyth · Member

I thought this gave an interesting perspective:

www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2014/05/the-ambivalent-legacy-of-brown-v-board.html

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

Sometimes it can be helpful to not use the words "racism" or "sexism" b/c then you don't get that knee jerk reaction. For example, "I wish upper level management had more diversity. There are 12 white men, that one Asian guy from accounting and that lady from Human Resources." Then you avoid the knee-jerk and that person may actually think about what you said. Not always. But sometimes.

Balloon Animal · Guru

Aurora wrote:
OpheliaDev1 wrote:
I looked up racism in the dictionary:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I don't think that the comic book publishers meet these criteria. I don't think that, on the whole, they think white people are superior, that their intent is to foster the idea that white people are superior, or that they hate other races.

Now comic books have basically exploded as a multi-million dollar industry with a huge fanbase. But for decades, these characters and stories chugged along, barely paying the bills and keeping the lights on. The writers and artists and company owners were white guys telling stories about mostly white guys to a fanbase that was mostly white guys. Superman and Batman have been around since the 30s. Captain America was created in 1941. The X-men were created in 1963. These characters were created in times where, let's be honest, had they been non-white and non-male, would not have been commercially successful enough to survive.
#2 is exactly what was done. There are people clambering for female characters to get a movie (males and females). In fact women watch moves multiple times, on average whereas men only go once. Including women in their target audience aids in increasing income. Yet, it does not cross their minds to do a Storm origins movie (african and female)? Her story is pretty badass. Or wonder woman, another movie that has been asked for, and would bring in a ton of money and was created during that time you posted about. The idea that a female or non-white character would not bring be successful has been shown to be untrue yet it won't be done because of either unconscious or conscious sexism. Just because it is unconscious does not mean it is not sexist. It does foster a culture.
I grew up with these boys, techie and geek have a huge intersection and the culture is very sexist. It does not matter if they intended the affect, they behavior caused it.
Sorry 42, for the hijack.

FYI- Joss Whedon has tried for years to get the Wonder Woman movie going. He just keeps running into issues. Can't find the right actress, and other issues. He is a huge feminist (Buffy the Vampire Slayer hello!).

Aurora · Senior Member

Balloon Animal wrote:
Aurora wrote:
OpheliaDev1 wrote:
I looked up racism in the dictionary:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

I don't think that the comic book publishers meet these criteria. I don't think that, on the whole, they think white people are superior, that their intent is to foster the idea that white people are superior, or that they hate other races.

Now comic books have basically exploded as a multi-million dollar industry with a huge fanbase. But for decades, these characters and stories chugged along, barely paying the bills and keeping the lights on. The writers and artists and company owners were white guys telling stories about mostly white guys to a fanbase that was mostly white guys. Superman and Batman have been around since the 30s. Captain America was created in 1941. The X-men were created in 1963. These characters were created in times where, let's be honest, had they been non-white and non-male, would not have been commercially successful enough to survive.
#2 is exactly what was done. There are people clambering for female characters to get a movie (males and females). In fact women watch moves multiple times, on average whereas men only go once. Including women in their target audience aids in increasing income. Yet, it does not cross their minds to do a Storm origins movie (african and female)? Her story is pretty badass. Or wonder woman, another movie that has been asked for, and would bring in a ton of money and was created during that time you posted about. The idea that a female or non-white character would not bring be successful has been shown to be untrue yet it won't be done because of either unconscious or conscious sexism. Just because it is unconscious does not mean it is not sexist. It does foster a culture.
I grew up with these boys, techie and geek have a huge intersection and the culture is very sexist. It does not matter if they intended the affect, they behavior caused it.
Sorry 42, for the hijack.
FYI- Joss Whedon has tried for years to get the Wonder Woman movie going. He just keeps running into issues. Can't find the right actress, and other issues. He is a huge feminist (Buffy the Vampire Slayer hello!).

I don't think I would agree with that. See: http://extribulum.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/rewriting-firefly/ if you are interested.

I would agree he is having trouble, but the issue, from my understanding, is not the lack of actresses which honestly makes no sense to me. http://www.themarysue.com/warner-bros-animation-girl-market/ WB's issues with women are shown at that link but if you don't want to read it just this quote explains quite well "He said, “They’re all for the boys, we do not want the girls! I mean, I’ve heard executives say this, you know, not where I am but at other places, saying like, ‘We do not want girls watching these shows.” When Smith pointed out that was a strange move because, well, women are 51% of the population, Dini said, “They don’t buy toys. The girls buy different toys.”"

Again, the sexist or racist (or homophobic etc) attitudes, even if unintentional cause a culture that make acting on them and saying them acceptable.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

I don't know if it's sexist to say "the girls buy different toys" IF they actually DO primarily buy different toys. Wouldn't that just simply be a statement of fact? Even though they don't give a specific percentage that they are talking about, it's a given that they don't mean "100% of girls"... it's more that they mean "more girls do buy 'girly' toys than don't buy 'girly' toys."

Aardvark · But my mom says I'm cool!

Forty-two wrote:
Why oh why is it ok that every thing bad happening to you is because you are a woman but if I suggest for just a second that something bad is happening because i am black I am paranoid? Please explain....oh and at work can you please stop calling me by the name of the other black women.

My initial reaction was to ask if you were constantly bringing the topic up, but since they cannot be bothered to call you by YOUR name, it's because they're jerks. And more.

Forty-two · Guru

Aardvark wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Why oh why is it ok that every thing bad happening to you is because you are a woman but if I suggest for just a second that something bad is happening because i am black I am paranoid? Please explain....oh and at work can you please stop calling me by the name of the other black women.
My initial reaction was to ask if you were constantly bringing the topic up, but since they cannot be bothered to call you by YOUR name, it's because they're jerks. And more.

White women constantly bring up the topic of gender discrimination. When they do I occasionally compare it to racial discrimination where they act like either a) it does not exist, or b) I am overly focused on it. Both make me laugh because I am far less focused on racial issues then they are on gender issues.

ana · Senior Member

Some women love to play the victim. How dare you face something that they don't have to deal with and take the focus off them! For shame!

Aardvark · But my mom says I'm cool!

ana wrote:
Some women love to play the victim. How dare you face something that they don't have to deal with and take the focus off them! For shame!

This is a very valid point!

genie · Veteran Member

Forty-two wrote:
Aardvark wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Why oh why is it ok that every thing bad happening to you is because you are a woman but if I suggest for just a second that something bad is happening because i am black I am paranoid? Please explain....oh and at work can you please stop calling me by the name of the other black women.
My initial reaction was to ask if you were constantly bringing the topic up, but since they cannot be bothered to call you by YOUR name, it's because they're jerks. And more.
White women constantly bring up the topic of gender discrimination. When they do I occasionally compare it to racial discrimination where they act like either a) it does not exist, or b) I am overly focused on it. Both make me laugh because I am far less focused on racial issues then they are on gender issues.

I don't ever hear this. Heck, I don't hear it outside of work unless you consider the occasional random complaint about a particular husband, punctuated by "Men!!!" as a comment on gender discrimination.

I don't know if that means that I work with a great group of women or whether I'm just a not someone that people feel okay with opening up to.