I had an interesting discussion at a dinner party recently where the subject of belief in ghosts came up. One fellow (an avowed atheist) took the position that those who believe in ghosts are theists and believe in an afterlife; he also stated strongly that there is no such thing as a ghost and those who claim to have seen/heard/felt ghosts are lying or deluded.
I find this idea very intriguing. I grew up in an apartment which I firmly believe was haunted. All my siblings had some experience with the ghost (the smell of boiling coffee and of a flowery perfume at certain times in the early morning) and my mother and I heard it and felt it a number of times.
It does so happen that I am a person of faith and believe there is life after death, but I have never thought of these two things as related.
What say the peeps?
[edited for typos)]
-- Edited by huckleberry on Saturday 29th of September 2012 12:03:37 PM
-- Edited by huckleberry on Saturday 29th of September 2012 01:23:55 PM
-- Edited by huckleberry on Saturday 29th of September 2012 02:36:09 PM
I've actually had a similar conversation with my 13 year old, but from the other direction. I don't really believe in ghosts but do believe in God and an afterlife. Nik-Nik doesn't believe in God/afterlife, but does believe in ghosts.
Now, I feel like I need to say I respect Nik-Nik's beliefs and am not trying to change them, but I also don't see anything wrong with bringing up things for her to think about. Now, she's free to come to her own conclusions, but yes I've asked her to reflect on her belief in ghosts and try to figure out where that fits in with her beliefs on whether or not there's an afterlife, and if there is, where does that come from. She's kind of gone from being atheist to agnostic because of it. She allows that she thinks their could be a higher being(s) but not what form that may take.
My own (non) belief in ghosts is rather convoluted. It's very circular thinking that some people have a hard time grasping, but basically I believe that giving credence to things gives them form. If I believed in ghosts they would exist (rather real or maybe because I would see natural phenomena and assign it to ghosts). But because I don't believe in them, even if they are real, they don't exist for me and therefore can't affect me.
Makes no sense, I know. But, I did have to banish all credence in ghosts in my house because of the girl in white. She was a joke for a while but one night my nephew tried to blame something on her and I got pissed off and said "That's it! No more ghost! No more girl in white! I don't want to hear another fricking word about it. She's gone, she doesn't exist." And since that day, not one of us has seen her.
safety, I think I do understand what you're saying and it's even more interesting than the original discussion. I'm reminded of William James and the will to believe...
But what happened to my poll? was it spirited away?
I belive in gods/humans/ghosts and my mind is open to the possibilities of other forms of life/intelligence but so far everything I've experienced falls under one of these three.
Gods exist as concious powers that can create and direct their creations. People exist as corporeal beings who's thoughts and actions (belief, worship) give power to their gods. Ghosts are somewhere between the two. They're not wholly spirit but they're not corporeal either. They are a manifestation of the power between gods and their creations. Or gods between each other. Or a manifestation of non corporeal power between people. That's how hauntings and curses work.
On the flip side of that it's also how prayer works or the power of positive thoughts or even cheering for your sports team. When people get together and direct their thoughts and emotions towards a goal, a common spirit (another word for ghost) forms among them. If they pray first their chosen god is also strenghtened and can lend more power to the spirit of the endevour. That would be called a blessing. What's left is the physical/human aspect.
I also believe that other living creatures have spirits but I thing the relationship between humans and their gods is more direct than animals/vegetation gods.
I believe in God and the afterlife, I also have felt the presence of ghosts. My grandmother had a very strong sixth sense and could occasionally see ghosts.
Well, actually Safety's right and I accidentally forgot to push the button when I edited. But I can't figure out how to allow more than one choice. No doubt the spirits are using their powers to make me stupid.
Well, actually Safety's right and I accidentally forgot to push the button when I edited. But I can't figure out how to allow more than one choice. No doubt the spirits are using their powers to make me stupid.
The deceased Capulet advises you to select "checkboxes" and not radio buttons when you set up the poll.
__________________
It is rare for people to be asked the question which puts them squarely in front of themselves.
Well, actually Safety's right and I accidentally forgot to push the button when I edited. But I can't figure out how to allow more than one choice. No doubt the spirits are using their powers to make me stupid.
The deceased Capulet advises you to select "checkboxes" and not radio buttons when you set up the poll.
That's an interesting idea DQM. So in that construct, is man created by God(s) or God created by man? Do you believe in multiple gods?
There's more than one god but the one I worship is God (capital G)
I think of it like sports teams. If you're a fan of the 49ers that doesn't mean the Raiders don't exist. They still exist it's just that in your opinion, you and your chosen team are better. Sometimes you're proven wrong and sometimes you're right. But if you're a true fan you stay with your team even when they lose. You offer up your opinon on how they could be better. You buy their stuff, you go to their games and cheer them on and you suffer abuse sometimes from the fans of the other teams.
Did man create gods? In my view -no. Just like the millions of sports fan that exist didn't create the sports they worship. But fans do influence the games. They change the rules, they give them life and power. If sports have no fans they die. If gods have no worshippers they have no influence. They can't DO anything.
At least not in the physical world anyway. I'm not a spirit so I don't know how thongs work in that realm. For all I know gods could be weakend in the non corporeal realm by devoting power/blessings to physical beings. The only thing I know for sure is how limited my understanding is. That's why I'm open to learning.
I believe in God and an afterlife. While I have never experienced the presence of a ghost a good friend has. She has even said that my dad appeared to her while talking to my mom one night. That one was really scary. He was telling friend that my mom had been contemplating suicide and she needed to help my mom. I knew of her sensitivity to ghosts before but it had never hit home before. I even tear up thinking about it now.
I find this idea of faith being linked to belief in ghosts quite intriguing.
Lots of religious people I've known (and many I've only read about) think belief in ghosts is wrong, even sinful, perhaps because at least for Christians the idea that souls would be wandering around here instead of with God seems contrary to doctrine.
On the other hand, many atheists also reject the idea of life after death in any form, so naturally to them a ghost would be more of gravy than the grave I suppose.
On the third hand, I haven't pondered and struggled with the question of whether I believe in ghosts, the way one does in considering belief in God. I just have had these experiences that to me were undeniably contacts with (or at least from) a person who was not visible and must have been dead. I don't see how I could interpret these experiences differently if I had different beliefs about God and the afterlife.
I find this idea of faith being linked to belief in ghosts quite intriguing.
Lots of religious people I've known (and many I've only read about) think belief in ghosts is wrong, even sinful, perhaps because at least for Christians the idea that souls would be wandering around here instead of with God seems contrary to doctrine.
On the other hand, many atheists also reject the idea of life after death in any form, so naturally to them a ghost would be more of gravy than the grave I suppose.
On the third hand, I haven't pondered and struggled with the question of whether I believe in ghosts, the way one does in considering belief in God. I just have had these experiences that to me were undeniably contacts with (or at least from) a person who was not visible and must have been dead. I don't see how I could interpret these experiences differently if I had different beliefs about God and the afterlife.
Well truth be told, that's kind of where my "non-belief" in ghosts comes from. It's pretty similar to (what I've heard is) Catholic doctrine on demons/possession. You give it no credence, don't acknowledge it in any way, and it can't harm you. It's when you allow it to exist or put some sort of belief into it that it is capable of affecting you.
I don't know that's what Catholics believe, but that's what I've heard. Just a sort of "ignore it and it will go away".
And I suppose in a way it's kind of similar to DQM's belief. Directing your thoughts and emotions into something gives it a kind of power.
I find this idea of faith being linked to belief in ghosts quite intriguing.
Lots of religious people I've known (and many I've only read about) think belief in ghosts is wrong, even sinful, perhaps because at least for Christians the idea that souls would be wandering around here instead of with God seems contrary to doctrine.
On the other hand, many atheists also reject the idea of life after death in any form, so naturally to them a ghost would be more of gravy than the grave I suppose.
On the third hand, I haven't pondered and struggled with the question of whether I believe in ghosts, the way one does in considering belief in God. I just have had these experiences that to me were undeniably contacts with (or at least from) a person who was not visible and must have been dead. I don't see how I could interpret these experiences differently if I had different beliefs about God and the afterlife.
Well truth be told, that's kind of where my "non-belief" in ghosts comes from. It's pretty similar to (what I've heard is) Catholic doctrine on demons/possession. You give it no credence, don't acknowledge it in any way, and it can't harm you. It's when you allow it to exist or put some sort of belief into it that it is capable of affecting you.
I don't know that's what Catholics believe, but that's what I've heard. Just a sort of "ignore it and it will go away".
And I suppose in a way it's kind of similar to DQM's belief. Directing your thoughts and emotions into something gives it a kind of power.
I think I understand what you're saying (and see how your ideas and DQM's relate).
But since I had these things happen, am convinced it was real and only explicable as something done by or at least as a result of a ghost, I can't just say I won't believe in it, KWIM? For me it's like saying I don't believe in Kindles because I don't want one.
But if our ghost ha been frightening in herself I might want to find a way to un-believe her I guess. It was unsettling to recognize what was happening but not scary or threatening.
I don't get how Christians can say they don't believe in ghosts. To me ghost is just another word for spirit and a core teaching of Christianity is that there is a Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.
I don't necessarily see ghosts as dead 'people'. I think of ghosts as any non corporeal being.
So an angel can be considered a spirit (or ghost if you will). A demon can be considered a spirit
Animals can have spirits and certain people who are sensitive to that can commune with them. There are people who can while living project their spirits (not their souls) outside of their living bodies. And there are people have died who's spirits may still be able to communicate. Those would be ghosts in the most common sense of the word.
I don't believe that spirit and soul are synonymous. While an angel is a spirit (no physical body) it doesn't have a soul (free will to worship God). While an animal is not a spirit (because it has a body) it may contain one even though it doesn't have a soul. I do believe there are animal spirits and even tree spirits. The Bible even makes out that there could be rock spirits. In Luke 19:40 It doesn't specifically say this I'm totally paraphrasing but it says that if the people don't cry out and praise Him then the rocks will! The first time I read that I was floored. It sort of spoke to me that all of God's creation can give him glory so yes, I do believe that there is spirit all of creation and we have to be respectful of it.
People are special creations of God. We got physical bodies, spirits AND souls.
The easiest way to describe the difference between a spirit and a soul is that a soul has a choice.
Angels, rocks, animals either are spirits or have spirits to glorify god.
I believe in two kinds of ghosts. the first kind, interactive as in communication between us and them. Then the 2nd kind, more of a recording that repeats itself at the same time and place and does not seem to notice or interact with us.
I had 2 in my old apartment during the 11 years I lived there. I beleive they were the 1st kind but they never really scared me.I always saw them out of the corner of my eye, standing by the kitchen doorway. the first one was a 20 ish young man, collar length wavy dark 70's hair, white unbuttoned oxford shirt and black jeans. He eventually left after I started talking to him explaining that I didn't mind him, "living" with me but that I listened to Sylvia Brown one night and she said direct them to the nearest funeral home....and I did. he left shortly after.
the 2nd one, It ws like an outline of a woman in a knee lenth skirt, hair up in a bun and my old neighbor used to see her too. My ExBf saw her as recently as 6 months ago before we moved. when we left we said out loud that it was nice knowing her but please stay here, we would like the new place to ourselves...and I haven't seen her in my new apartment so she must have stayed there.
I realize this sounds crazy but I get glimpses of stuff like this alot and I just talk to them like normal and ask that they don't try and scare me and we will get along great. The only one that scared me was during a bad time in my life and I'd mistakenly dabbled in some new age types of religion and broke some of the rules. I found a scary presense in my house, But I rid of all the books, candles and talismans , did a cleasning and started praying. It left thank God...literally!
Y'all may think I'm a nutter but I'm serious... dead Serious...Pun intended!
-- Edited by Mary Zombie on Tuesday 2nd of October 2012 01:08:21 PM
Mary, of course I think you're a nutter but not because you see dead people!
I've never seen one, but the ghost in our old apartment brushed past me a few times. The sensation was unmmistakeably that of the fabric of a dress, with a woman inside it.
Kapper, that's just what I mean. Once you've had it happen, often enough to be sure, there's no question of faith or philiosophy involved. It just is.
Yet interestingly the (very small) poll is bearing out the first part of what the fellow argued, i.e. those who do not believe in God or an afterlife do not believe in ghosts either.
I am not christian , but I strongly believe in the Great Spirit and accept other Gods. as far as ghosts I have to believe in them as I have seen them on several occasions. and definately interacted with one that lived in the same house as I did. .. I do understand people that have never experienced this have a hard time with it but as for me an mine we believe in what we have experienced.
Well, perhaps it's Halloween coming up but I find myself very curious about the ghost stories hinted at here. I think those who have seen/heard/felt ghosts should give details!
I will start, though mine is not very dramatic. The apartment where I grew up was a doctor's office for many years, beginning in the early twenties, and only became an apartment after the doctor died.
Our ghost manifested most often with a strong smell of boiling coffee, mostly in the early morning hours. Everyone in the family smelled this at least several times over the years. There were no other people living in the building and the smell was too strong to be coming from anywhere else; also it happened in all seasons, even winter when windows were firmly closed.
My mother and I were the only ones to hear and feel the ghost, and also occasionally to smell her. The sounds were a clinking of crockery or glass, again very distinct and always seeming to come from the same place in the apartment, a sort of wide hallway or vestibule between the front and back of the apartment, and sometimes a faint murmer of voices or music. We also sometimes felt her brushng by us as I mentioned before, and on a few occasions could smell what I later figured out must have been her cologne, a rather pungent violet scent.
The sensation that would come with these perceptions is hard to describe, like being out of time for a few moments. Not frightening but so disorienting that I wanted to go outside or at least sit down for a little while.
The apartment became a yoga studio after the building was sold. I ran into the owner, who also lives on the premises, and she said she had had the feeling that there was a ghost, even though she hasn't experieinced any of the smells or sounds. But then, she lives in a different area of the building and is not in our old apartment at night.
Since it is Halloween Eve and NANN is not going to tell her story, I will tell the story of the Ghost Barn.
When we moved into our house Mr. Huck discovered a mound at the back of our very large lot that seemed to be an old garbage heap (it is because we have found various bits of broken crockery and the like over the years). He called me back to have a look at it and I noticed some odds and ends of stone and had a sudden, very vivid picture of an old barn standing on the site. So vivid that I was foolish enough to tell my husband about it.
Mr. Huck thought it was more likely the remains of an old swingset or the like and teased me mercilously for years about my Ghost Barn.
Then several years back I was at a function and met a man who grew up many years ago quite near our house. He was very excited when he heard where I lived and asked if the old barn--the one the kids 50+ years ago all thought was haunted--was still standing!
I guess this isn't really a ghoststory and isn't very scary but it's the best I could come up with.
My house was built in 1860 as a hotel, it later became a sanitarium, a girls dorm, a grade school and then a furniture store.
I used to play house and hide and seek in here as a little kid when it was a furniture store. When I moved in with DH it was so strange to see it run down and looking so shabby. He has been doing a lot of work on it.
Since I've been living here, I hear people walking upstairs, doors opening and shutting and the vent over my stove will come on and go off, both the fan and the light. He turns lights off and on, opens cabinets. It freaked me out at first, but I grew used to it. For some reason I feel it's one ghost and his name is Larry.
He loves to annoy the dogs, my great pyrenees especially. There are certain times that refuse to go in a certain room that they go into all the time and our dog door- the GP would stand there and bark until we came...and then she would go out the door. Other times she would go out just fine on her own. One day she was barking and I just said Larry, get away from the dog door...and sure enough she went right through it then.
He is mostly active when we are active on doing repairs. He does listen when we say cut it out or what not. I left my digital recorder upstairs one night and you do hear the walking and doors closing..you also hear some mummering..but I can't tell what it's saying.
The other day when our power was out I swear I hear the old school bell dinging. It's not even here anymore. Also once when I was huddled in bed trying to stay warm I heard the front door open and DH come in and stomp the snow off of his boots and say Brrr. I hollered to tell him where I was. He never answered me or came in so I pulled my blanket off the bed and wrapped up in it to ask him why he was home. (we're in a state of emergency- so he's had to stay at his detachement) He wasn't here, no one was hear and they couldn't have gotten the dront door open if they were. It had too much snow blocking it. I guess Larry doesn't like the cold either. :/
I had thought I'd come back and tell my original story for Halloween..but the power was out.
Thanks! We are one of the very few people with power, and out of 7,000 people in the county...we are one of 118 ppl who have the internet. I'm sending out messages to out of state family members with email and fb for people. I've been bringing up laundry from people staying at the shelter below me and doing it here at the house and taking it back down. Staffing it when they need me. I just found out that at the other end of the county there are 300 people at that shelter and they're are at one of the 4 grade schools. They are seriously understaffed so I'm packing to go stay there for a while to help staff and feed and whatnot. DH has been allowed to return home in between shifts so he can take care of the doggers.
It's been exactly 20 yrs since Hurricane Andrew. Tomorrow 20 yrs ago I arrived in FL to live in a tent city a while and do blitz building with H4H. Tomorrow I will again sleep on an army cot in a shelter. LOL. I just realized that. :D
They were calling for snow, but it looks like now it's going to be rain. We'd rather have snow because the rivers are up with the 4'+ of snow melt and the downed trees choking the streambed.
God Bless out DOH, the National Guard, the volunteer fire depts, the police. They have not had a break.
I'm a nerd..I like helping. I hope it does too, thank you. I feel so bad for them. I'm lucky..I've got it made. I'm almost back to normal. SO many people aren't and it doesn't look like they'll be getting back in their homes anytime soon.
You're not a nerd for helping, NANN, you're a good egg!
LOL Thanks. I wasn't much help I came home today, thought I was going to have to go down to my MILs but my SIL will go now because my Mom's porch broke under the weight of snow, so I'm helping her file the FEMA report and get it fixed.
