Invisapeeps 2.0

huckleberry · Senior Member

Who Is More Tolerant?

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

I was one of the rare flexible people as a young'un... so I haven't gotten more flexible in my listening as I grew older... but I'd say that in general, yes, older people are more tolerant than younger people... until they reach their limit.

Once that limit is reached however... watch out. "A bigger dam holds a lot more water" (as the saying goes).

EFT

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Saturday 20th of October 2012 09:23:23 PM

Mollys Mom · Member

I think I have gotten more flexible in most matters. I am much more live and let live.

I am much more flexible than my DIL. My DIL was raised in a military family. Someone once said most military were more rigid. I don't know if that is really true but she does have some pretty inflexible views on certain things.

My IL's were pretty rigid most of their lives and more so as they got older. However one of the things I noticed with my IL's was that they had more fears of many things.

Mollys Mom

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

I think tolerance is learned so it's not an age thing. When my youngest was a baby she really hated cross dressing males. It would upset and anger her to see a man in a wig or dress or makeup or even if she saw a man acting like a woman she'd get angry and want to hit. At first I'd try not to expose her to it but after a while I had to TEACH her that her behavior was not ok. She's 13 now and she admits that she doesn't like it but her behavior doesn't have to match her feelings.

It's ok to be repulsed, that's a feeling. It's not ok to throw things or hit.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Hmm, the more I think about this the more interesting it gets.

The conventional wisdom is that intolerance (i.e. bigotry) is learned and I certainly think that is true.

Yet DQM's daughter has to "unlearn" hers.

And I do agree that seeing another person's point of view or understanding the failings of others is something one learns with experience. Or should, anyway.

winds55 · Guru

there's a roomful of college kids now the hall from me at work. Since they already know it all, they have no interest in hearing anyone else's side of things. It's so obvious they're regurgitating whatever the pundits on 'their' side have said recently that I cannot take any of them seriously. (And sooo many 'facts' that are wrong that I wonder how the hell they got out of high school.)

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

huckleberry wrote:
Hmm, the more I think about this the more interesting it gets.

The conventional wisdom is that intolerance (i.e. bigotry) is learned and I certainly think that is true.

Yet DQM's daughter has to "unlearn" hers.

And I do agree that seeing another person's point of view or understanding the failings of others is something one learns with experience. Or should, anyway.

yeah I've heard that too but I don't get it. People don't need to be taught to selfish, intolerant, rude or bigots. We come that way. Babies are @$$holes! Everything is about them, they have no regard for other people's feelings. If they look at you and don't like you they make a big stink and they think the world was meant to suit THEM.

They need to be taught tolerance and how to behave towards other people and that individuals are meant to serve the world. The world was not made to serve individuals.

huckleberry · Senior Member

I do agree that babies are selfish creatures in almost all respects, DQM, but that's developmental to a great extent. Very young kids are capable of empathy and want to help others in distress. That's not just me talking, it's been demonstrated many times in controlled studies. Of course they do have to learn how to control and channel their impulses, including the impulse to be selfish.

But when I said bigotry is learned I mean dislike of certain groups. Children are taught to look down on people of other colors or religions, intentionally or not. It may be building on a natural inclination to distrust those who are different from themselves and their families, but again there's no question that discrimination is learned behavior.

Cactus · Senior Member

It's an interesting question. I think some people become more open minded and tolerant as they get older, and some get more rigid and close minded.
I do think people tend to rely too much on their own experience in how they view things. How many times do we hear or read arguments based on "Everyone I know does this..." or "nobody I know does that..." or on how things are done in their family or community or group of friends? If people are inclined to that type of thinking then age might bring more experience and broader views. Of course not all people get exposed to differences as they get older.
There are also people whose experiences unfortunately confirm their preconceived notions-not just because of the experiences but because of the lens through which they view them.
You would also hope that people would, like the OP, learn from their mistakes, failures and weaknesses. However, again, it's partly an issue of perception. Some people just don't make those connections.

huckleberry · Senior Member

You're right, Cactus, seems like there is not a simple answer to this question.

One thing I notice (and remember from my youth) is how often folks who believe they are tolerant really aren't. E.G. I find I have certain views that people think a politically and socially liberal person (especially female) should not have. I've noticed that often it's the younger people who are most adamant in their disapproval, whereas many of those who are older recognize that reasonable minds can differ and do not stereotype so much and so strenuously.

safety_mom · I'm really not that safe!

I think there may be a parabolic curve on this.
I do think as we get somewhat older, we recognize that we ourselves have often made mistakes or compromised beliefs on occasion and that makes us somewhat less judgmental.
I also think that the tolerance decreases again as we get even older (like 70's and up) because the thinking once again shifts.

But, I'm talking about being judgmental towards individuals and their choices.
If you're talking about tolerance in regards to ethnic groups, sexual orientation, or even just plain being 'different', I think young people today are more tolerant than any group that came before them.

huckleberry · Senior Member

safety, I agree that young'ns today mostly do not care about race, creed, color, sexual orientation or even gender much. I do still hear lots of young folks making sterotypical remarks about people's ethnicity or interests/avocations, though.

But it's interesting to me that so many are unforgiving and stereotypical in their thinking not only as to individuals but entire groups of people, and quick to label opinions different from theirs as stupid or without value. One would like to imagine that the generation raised in a time when there is so much less bigotry directed at people because of their race or religion would be less inclined to make assumptions about other groups, but I'm not sure that's true.

Mollys Mom · Member

huckleberry wrote:
safety, I agree that young'ns today mostly do not care about race, creed, color, sexual orientation or even gender much. I do still hear lots of young folks making sterotypical remarks about people's ethnicity or interests/avocations, though.

But it's interesting to me that so many are unforgiving and stereotypical in their thinking not only as to individuals but entire groups of people, and quick to label opinions different from theirs as stupid or without value. One would like to imagine that the generation raised in a time when there is so much less bigotry directed at people because of their race or religion would be less inclined to make assumptions about other groups, but I'm not sure that's true.

I am inclined to agree with you on that. But I think every generation does and will have its own type of bigotry. Why? I don't know but it seems to me that as soon as one barrier is taken down another goes up for whatever reason.

I think that deep down we all have our own type of, for lack of a better word, bigotry.

Mollys Mom

Forty-two · Guru

The older I get the more conservative I get.

Cactus · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
The older I get the more conservative I get.

Conservative in what way? Do you see that as the same as intolerant?

Forty-two · Guru

huckleberry wrote:
I do agree that babies are selfish creatures in almost all respects, DQM, but that's developmental to a great extent. Very young kids are capable of empathy and want to help others in distress. That's not just me talking, it's been demonstrated many times in controlled studies. Of course they do have to learn how to control and channel their impulses, including the impulse to be selfish.

But when I said bigotry is learned I mean dislike of certain groups. Children are taught to look down on people of other colors or religions, intentionally or not. It may be building on a natural inclination to distrust those who are different from themselves and their families, but again there's no question that discrimination is learned behavior.

I don't think all bigotry is learned, i.e. learned from a parent. A person may learn bigotry from observation. Let's say a white kid has a few hispanics in class with him, these kids are in the lowest reading group or the lowest math group. Let's say when he goes to the hair salon with his mother he hears the hispanic women talking about welfare checks and their baby daddies not paying child support, what if at home hispanic people are the people cutting his lawn. If this is this kid's only exposure to hispanics he may not have a very positive image of them. Yeah his bigotry is learned, learned from observations.

huckleberry · Senior Member

It's true kids don't learn bigotry only from parents. But I doubt there are many bigots who were not raised by bigots; the nature of bigotry tis to stereotype people negatovely based on their color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, etc.--things that logically have nothing to do with people's characters or worth. It is a habit of bigots to observe somethng they don't like (or interpret something they observe in a negative way) and base their judgment of other people who are the same color on what was observed. In most if not all cases this is a way of thinking kids learn from their parents.

In other words, even if you have only ever observed black people behaving badly, it does not make logical sense to conclude that every black person will behave badly. You have to be willing to think illogically to be a bigot, and that is learned behavior.

Forty-two · Guru

huckleberry wrote:
It's true kids don't learn bigotry only from parents. But I doubt there are many bigots who were not raised by bigots; the nature of bigotry tis to stereotype people negatovely based on their color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, etc.--things that logically have nothing to do with people's characters or worth. It is a habit of bigots to observe somethng they don't like (or interpret something they observe in a negative way) and base their judgment of other people who are the same color on what was observed. In most if not all cases this is a way of thinking kids learn from their parents.

In other words, even if you have only ever observed black people behaving badly, it does not make logical sense to conclude that every black person will behave badly. You have to be willing to think illogically to be a bigot, and that is learned behavior.

I understand your point of view, I don't agree with it, however. It is not illogical to assume a group will act in a particular manner if every person in that group that you have observed has consistantly acted in that manner. In fact, I would say it is illogical to think they WOULDN'T act in a manner in which you have always observed.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 27th of October 2012 09:12:35 AM

Forty-two · Guru

Cactus wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
The older I get the more conservative I get.
Conservative in what way? Do you see that as the same as intolerant?

No I don't see conservative exactly the same as intolerant. And, my conservativism is mostly around personal behavior.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
It's true kids don't learn bigotry only from parents. But I doubt there are many bigots who were not raised by bigots; the nature of bigotry tis to stereotype people negatovely based on their color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, etc.--things that logically have nothing to do with people's characters or worth. It is a habit of bigots to observe somethng they don't like (or interpret something they observe in a negative way) and base their judgment of other people who are the same color on what was observed. In most if not all cases this is a way of thinking kids learn from their parents.

In other words, even if you have only ever observed black people behaving badly, it does not make logical sense to conclude that every black person will behave badly. You have to be willing to think illogically to be a bigot, and that is learned behavior.
I understand your point of view, I don't agree with it, however. It is not illogical to assume a group will act in a particular manner if every person in that group that you have observed has consistantly acted in that manner. In fact, I would say it is illogical to think they WOULDN'T act in a manner in which you have always observed.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 27th of October 2012 09:12:35 AM

But it is illogical if the trait you're using to identify the group has nothing to do with how people behave. It is just as logical to make assumptions about how people with hammertoes will behave as it is to do so about the color of peoples' skin. But because of attitudes handed down (not just from parent to child but from the larger social group) bigoted people will hold stereotypical views about intelligence, morality and behavior based on a trait (ie color of skin) that everyone knows is unrelated to intelligence, moraility or behavior.

Forty-two · Guru

I guess I don't make the assumptions you do about bigotry and how it comes to be also you are basically saying any type of profiling is illogical. I just don't agree with that one either.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
I guess I don't make the assumptions you do about bigotry and how it comes to be also you are basically saying any type of profiling is illogical. I just don't agree with that one either.

Profiling is not what I mean, though I am not a fan of profiling for many reasons besides logic. Profiling rests on the idea that physical traits like the color of a person's skin (or non-physical attributes like having an Arabic-sounding name or wearing certain kinds of clothing) has a correlation with certain backgrounds and activities. It's not illogical.

But it isn't logical to make judgements about a person's intelligence or morality based on a physical trait that has nothing to do with those qualities.

And yes, there are lots of ways to develop stereotypical ideas about groups of people. I just think that in most cases early learning plays a large role in discriminatory thinking about race, religion, gender and ethnicity.

Forty-two · Guru

I agree early learning can play a large role; it just is definitely not the case with many people. I have seen many people develop stereotypes about their own people based soley on their exposure to their own people. It is not illogical for someone to build up a belief about a certain group after constant repeated negative exposure to such a group. I don't see a difference between profiling and bigotry, different name for the same thing.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Sorry, 42, if I understand what you're saying correctly I am truly baffled by it. It is not logical to conclude that people who behave badly do so because of the color of their skin; skin color is not related to bad behavior in any way, shape or form. It is no more logical to say that a group of people behave badly because they have dark skin than it is to say a group of people behave badly because they have malformed toes--and it does not matter how often one observes bad behavior by people with malformed toes.

That is, unless you are willing to ignore reality and believe that skin color or shape of toes is related to morality. But that is a different problem, and anyone that silly is not interested in logic.

Profiling is arguably a symptom and possibly a function of bigotry, but it is not the same thing.

Forty-two · Guru

I don't think most people think having dark skin makes you bad, i.e. it causes you to be bad no matter what your circumstances are. I think people think that having dark skin is correlative to bad behavior or a predictor of bad behavior. Just like in profiling, black people are followed around in stores because people assume they are more likely to steal because the majority of people that have stolen from the store in the past have been black. Another example, if you had a room full of 100 guys and 50 of them were black and someone had to pick out the ten olympic swimmers, ice hockey players, or equestrian riders I am pretty sure few if any black guys would be picked. Why? because in most people's experience they don't see black men performing these sports, it is perfectly logical to assume that the members of the teams I mention would not include black people, odds are they won't. Likewise, if a kid sees all of the Asian kids in school in the hardest math classes they are going to think Asian kids are good in math. If a kid only sees black kids in the lowest reading classes they are going to think black kids can't read well. I don't think that is illogical at all. So, back to the original point, I don't think you have to be raised by a bigot to develop bigoted opinions due to just observation.

I don't think we are going to change each other's mind on this one.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
I don't think most people think having dark skin makes you bad, i.e. it causes you to be bad no matter what your circumstances are. I think people think that having dark skin is correlative to bad behavior or a predictor of bad behavior. Just like in profiling, black people are followed around in stores because people assume they are more likely to steal because the majority of people that have stolen from the store in the past have been black. Another example, if you had a room full of 100 guys and 50 of them were black and someone had to pick out the ten olympic swimmers, ice hockey players, or equestrian riders I am pretty sure few if any black guys would be picked. Why? because in most people's experience they don't see black men performing these sports, it is perfectly logical to assume that the members of the teams I mention would not include black people, odds are they won't. Likewise, if a kid sees all of the Asian kids in school in the hardest math classes they are going to think Asian kids are good in math. If a kid only sees black kids in the lowest reading classes they are going to think black kids can't read well. I don't think that is illogical at all. So, back to the original point, I don't think you have to be raised by a bigot to develop bigoted opinions due to just observation.

I don't think we are going to change each other's mind on this one.

Nope, you won't get me to think that 1) believing the person who stole something steals because he or she is black and 2) that therefore people who are black are inclined to steal is logical. Don't think you'll be able to convince anyone who's taken even a semester of logic, either.

Would you at least consider that the reason folks might be prepared to believe something so utterly stupid is because they have learned to look down on other races, religions, etc.?

Forty-two · Guru

huckleberry wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
I don't think most people think having dark skin makes you bad, i.e. it causes you to be bad no matter what your circumstances are. I think people think that having dark skin is correlative to bad behavior or a predictor of bad behavior. Just like in profiling, black people are followed around in stores because people assume they are more likely to steal because the majority of people that have stolen from the store in the past have been black. Another example, if you had a room full of 100 guys and 50 of them were black and someone had to pick out the ten olympic swimmers, ice hockey players, or equestrian riders I am pretty sure few if any black guys would be picked. Why? because in most people's experience they don't see black men performing these sports, it is perfectly logical to assume that the members of the teams I mention would not include black people, odds are they won't. Likewise, if a kid sees all of the Asian kids in school in the hardest math classes they are going to think Asian kids are good in math. If a kid only sees black kids in the lowest reading classes they are going to think black kids can't read well. I don't think that is illogical at all. So, back to the original point, I don't think you have to be raised by a bigot to develop bigoted opinions due to just observation.

I don't think we are going to change each other's mind on this one.

Nope, you won't get me to think that 1) believing the person who stole something steals because he or she is black and 2) that therefore people who are black are inclined to steal is logical. Don't think you'll be able to convince anyone who's taken even a semester of logic, either.

Would you at least consider that the reason folks might be prepared to believe something so utterly stupid is because they have learned to look down on other races, religions, etc.?

I don't think the average Joe has had a semester in logic but that said I think some people think badly about races due to observation and some think badly about races because they have been taught to do so.

huckleberry · Senior Member

I do not disagree with what you just said, 42. It's a miracle!

how have you been, anyway?

Forty-two · Guru

huckleberry wrote:
I do not disagree with what you just said, 42. It's a miracle!

how have you been, anyway?

That's what I said from the beginning

I have not been ok, but worried about Sandy. I can't remember where you are, do you think you will be affected?

huckleberry · Senior Member

I hope you been you have been OK, 42?

I'm in Chicago, but I have a girl in school in Massachusetts and a boy in school in Vermont. They won't be hit by the hurricane itself but severe rain and wind is still possible. I'm not worried exactly but...where are you?

Forty-two · Guru

Huck I am in NJ and the power is already unstable. Electricity keeps going off and the storm has not even gotten here yet. Last year with Irene the kids were out of school for five days. They have already shut down school for today and tomorrow and work is closed.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Good luck to you, 42, I'll say a prayer you & your family get through safely without too much hardship. Do you have a generator?

Forty-two · Guru

huckleberry wrote:
Good luck to you, 42, I'll say a prayer you & your family get through safely without too much hardship. Do you have a generator?

No, no generator, it won't get here until Thursday.

Thank you for your kind thoughts and prayers.