Invisapeeps 2.0

Where I live, people don't get privileges just for being White (1) and they're not victims when they're not White. (2)

I strongly doubt that 1 is true, based on news reports out of LA regarding police stops. (Admittedly you're not in the LA area.)

With college admissions being as they are, I guarantee that 2 is false. Asians aren't white, yet are deliberately under-admitted as a matter of policy.

Well, I do and I don't. "White" isn't as monolithic a group as these discussions often suggest. Many whites are Jewish; many others Irish or Italian. Moreover, many Anglo-Saxon white men are short. All of these groups had their own battles to fight as well (if not necessarily in the USA).

But yes, I agree that in America it's definitely there. What to do about it is a different matter.

Oh no, neither have I. I meant more like, if anything DID happen, it would in no way shape or form be my issue.

I meant that a lot more generally than just this thread, but this thread reminded me of it.

I wish I didn't have to go shopping today, as a matter of fact.

tigerlily wrote:

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I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.

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This reminds me of a discussion we had on the original board where people were talking about bi-racial people.  I posted a poll asking how did you refer to a bi-racial person (black and white).  So 85% said black and the rest said bi-racial.  I should have included white but it did not occur to me in a million years that someone who was bi-racial would call themsleves white because people could see that they were not (not that how they look would be relevant  where I live). So DQM's story truly intrigues me.  For me to understand it I need to liken it to the male person who self-identifies as a female even though people don't see them as female and biologically they have that biology that makes them male.

In this country with hypodescent-one drop "mind-set"- I find your post interesting.  Maybe because of where I live, no bi-racial person would refer to themselves as white anymore than a guy would refer to himself as female.  Obama could refer to himself as white by self-identification logic but do people see him as white? No, they see him as black or bi-racial, I have never seen any polls or studies where people would call him white.  Once asked what he considered himself, he answered whenever her tried to get a cab in NYC he knew he was black (which addresses PB's point that you are what people see). 

If my black (bi-racial) son were to try to pass where I live he would have to deny that I was his mother and deny his half sisters.  Apparently it is different in other parts of the country but where I live and have lived he could not go around saying he is a white kid if he has a black mom.  This thread is very enlightening that in other parts of the country you could have a black parent and be thought of as white, it would not happen here and people like my son would not try to do so.

 

 

-- Edited by Forty-two on Monday 12th of November 2012 10:18:30 AM

Forty-two wrote:

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What happens when someone doesn't know that she identifies herself as white and refers to her as a black person does she correct them?

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Ok so my daughter is visiting right now and I posed this question to her since my previous answer was from my POV rather than hers. 

She said --

I don't consider myself just White.

So I mentioned times when I know she checked the White box and she said:  "I may have.  I AM White but I'm Black too and I'm sure that there have been times when I've checked the Black box.  Sometimes I don't check anything.  If someone calls me White I don't correct them and if someone calls me Black I don't correct them because I'm both so there really isn't anything to correct.  They're right either way."

So I asked her to give me an example of what she would (or wouldn't since she doesn't seem to have a preference) say in a particular situation

This is the example she gave:

--Hi I'm New Person, nice to meet you.
--Hello New Person.  My name is Asia. It's nice to meet you.
--Asia?  That's a pretty name.  Are you Asian?
--*laughter* no, I get that all the time.  I'm not Asian my parents are just weird.

So then I asked her what about if someone asks you if you're Black.

-Why would anyone ask me that?
-I don't know. But what would you say if they did?
-You mean like just outta the blue came up to me and asked me if I was Black? Do people do that?
-Well it's never happend to me.  If anyone ever asked me that I'd think they were weird.
-Yeah, so would I.
-So do people who meet you think you're Black?
-I dunno?  I don't ask but it's more often than not that when people meet you they're surprised.  No one ever seems surprised when they meet Dad.  Once they meet you I immediately get asked if I'm adopted because they don't believe you're my Mom.  I have had people not believe me when I tell them I'm Black but then they just laugh.

 

This last part I can attest to.  I've been asked many times if she's adopted.  But as I said before I've always looked really young for my age and most people just assume that I'm not old enough to have grown kids.

Is this any different from any of your other kids? Why would her point of view or this exchange be different from any of your other children? My question is why do you view her differently?

I don't think people walk up to bi-racial people and say are you black they may ask "what are you?" Hell I know a woman who was asked this on a job interview. I would assume the bi-racial person would say I have a black parent and a white parent.

As an example if I were meeting up with your four daughters in a restaurant I would say to the head waiter could you seat me with the four, light-skinned black girls that came in here.

Forty-two wrote:

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Is this any different from any of your other kids? --  What do you mean by this?

Why would her point of view or this exchange be different from any of your other children?-- Her point of view is kinda the point isn't it? 

My question is why do you view her differently? --  Because they're all unique and different.  They're sisters but they're still individuals.

I don't think people walk up to bi-racial people and say are you black they may ask "what are you?"-- If somone came up to one of my kids and said "what are you?" I don't think they'd understand what was being asked of them.  That's a very strange question.

Hell I know a woman who was asked this on a job interview. -- I'm not doubting you because I'm sure that you're telling the truth but that seems so very unprofessional and --illegal--.  Why would an interviewer ask that?

I would assume the bi-racial person would say I have a black parent and a white parent. -- I suppose that if they were being asked what race their PARENTS were that's how they'd answer but if they were being asked what race they were why would they answer for their parents?  That wasn't the question asked.

As an example if I were meeting up with your four daughters in a restaurant I would say to the head waiter could you seat me with the four, light-skinned black girls that came in here. -- You'd probably get looked at funny and waved in.   He'd probably just think -- forget it -- I'm not going there.  You know who you're looking for I'm sure you'll find them.  It wouldn't be much different than saying -- I'm with the four blonde girls that just came in.  He'd probably be thinking 'do you know how many blonde women come in here?'  Plus, I don't know what you consider blonde.  If I take you to a table with three blondes and a strawberry blonde I'm not about to get accused of calling her blonde when she considers herself a redhead.

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Oh, the reason I asked one and not the others was because your question was -- what would she say if someone doesn't know that she identifies as White says blah blah blah ... Since only one of them does there was no reason to ask the others.

But tell me do people that you know actually say:

'What are you?'

That's so vauge. How would your son know how to respond to that question?

I can imagine any of my girls saying:

'What do you mean? I'm alot of things. I'm Christian, I'm a student, I'm a Cub, I'm a girl. What are you asking?'

People that we know don't really say 'what are you?' Not that I'm aware of.

However I did give my kids names based on geography so they are accustomed to being asked their nationality.
They just say American.

Interesting questions/conversations often follow that. We practice dinner conversation once a week at a community dinner put on by our church. We eat with different families and practice their social skills and we volunteer our time in the kitchen either before or after the meal.

We haven't done it all all this year because they changed it from Wednesdays to Thursdays but it was a regular tradition in our family all while they were growing up. They have to be able to hold a conversation at the table, display good manners, answer and ASK interesting questions politely while eating and they have to make sure to engage everyone at the table and read their social cues.

In all our years no one has ever asked 'what are you?'

You're not hearing me. I said my daughter is White and refers to herself as White. I never said she was ONLY White. You came up with that on your own.

Also, I wasn't aware that there was a Black gene.

In fact I think you're making that up.

And seriously... just because you can't imagine something doesn't mean that it's not possible. That's the whole point of being open minded. Things can and do happen outside of your scope of imagination and exeperience.

And the German/American thing works when you accept that it's an analogy.

 

 

I did a very quick google search for a Black gene and this is the first answer that came up.  I don't vouch for it but it makes sense to me and it's pretty much what I've been saying all along:

 

 

 

Spoiler

Since 1910 researchers have known that human skin pigmentation is "Polygenic"(Pertaining to two or more genes as opposed to monogenic).

It is not as simple as black vs white equals black. In fact that is impossible.

Since a very dark skinned black person who has offspring with a very light skinned white person will never produce a very dark skinned black offspring. (I don't agree with this part)

We have known that complexion is polygenic, rather than the result of one gene with many alleles, because breeding of palest with darkest yields a spectrum of offspring genotypes from the same parents.

We have known that human pigmentation genes are additive and codominant because half the offspring of differently skin-toned parents have a complexion between that of their parents (no matter how similar the parents).

Several independent genes must work in concert to produce the deepest complexion-the extreme of the darkness adaptation.

Where knowledge has improved over the past century has been in precisely how many genes are involved and their specific loci. (This sentence makes no sense to me but whatever)

As of 1998, five human pigmentation genes had been identified. Their symbols and genome loci are: "TYR" at 11q14-21, "TYRP1" at 9p23, "TYRP2" at 13q31-32, "P" at 15q11.2-12, and "MC1R" at 16q24.3 (Sturm, Box, and Ramsay 1998).

Many things can go wrong and, when they do, the result is a lighter complexion. For instance, deleterious mutations at the five loci above result in various forms of albinism.

No genetic defect can make the child of light-skinned parents come out dark.
You need two dark parents to produce a dark child. But you don't need two white parents to produce a white child. (this is my point.)

-- Edited by dqm either on Sunday 18th of November 2012 06:04:09 PM

Ummm no, I never insisted that she was only White.

You

were insisting that she was only Black because according to you anyone with a Black parent is Black and they can't possibly be White.

When she fills out forms she marks White, if you ask her if she's White she'll say yes, if you look at her (maybe not you because you think White people look Black) she looks White she has both Caucasian and Anglo ancestry. She is White. Is she only White? I never said that.

One of us is insisting that anyone with a Black parent is Black. One of us is insisting that a Black parent can have a White child.

Here's another example:
My cousin was born in Germany to American parents. If you ask her if she is German the correct answer is yes. If you ask her if she is American the correct answer is also yes. If you ask her if she is Both German and American at the same time the correct answer is yes.

Using this analogy you would be insisting that my cousin is not German because her parents are American. I'd be insisting that she is because ... well because she IS. Then we'd ask her if she's German and she'd say yes. Then we'd ask her if she was American and she'd say yes. And you'd say -- that I had been insisting that she was ONLY German when I never did. I said she IS German I never said she was ONLY German. I know she's American too. Her mother is my aunt I'm not confused about who she is. I'm just letting you know that yes, American parents can have German children. And then you'd insist that she 'looks American' to you. And I'd show you pictures of other Germans and you'd insist that they look American too.

After a while it would get mellow dramatic because you'd keep insisting that any child born of an American who cliams to be German means that they are denying their American-ness and their American siblings and their American parents and how could they (or the horrors)

The American parents would be eating their popcorn and laughing at you for going on and on and not knowing what you were talking about. They don't feel denied because their kid is German. If having a German kid was too horrible to contemplate they would have stayed in America. As it turns out, my Aunt and Uncle never felt that being American was somehow MORE than being German. They never felt that one trumps the other.

That's what I'm getting from you. That being Black is somehow -more than- being White.
I never viewed one race as being superior in the baby making department to others.

I never said there is a black gene.

I did not even look at what you spoiled but you are going to tell someone who had to look at cadavers, take forensic science classes, genetics classes, that scientist can't identify a person's race by looking at their skeleton? Really? Just go to a Bodies exhibit and you can tell the race of the bodies there without their skin on them.

You have certainly opened my mind that is for sure.

Tigerlily, I normally think of bi-racial as a discripter of appearance. So like you said a case where a black person is very light skinned or has curly hair instead of kinky hair. As an example my daughter had to draw a picture of her brother and another student asked why he was so light and she said because his dad is white or bi-racial. But the boy is still a black kid.

Can I ask where you live and how old you are? I wonder if the way people look at bi-racial people is changing. I know it is not changing that much because of the poll I mentioned before and that was conducted on a very liberal board. I bet if you asked on a conservative board I don't think as many people would view bi-racial people as bi-racial.

It is interesting how in the US race is a social concept with hypodescent/one drop rule from the earlier part of the 20th century. In other countries like South Africa they have coloreds. The last time I was there I had an interesting discussion with a colored man. Colored is a mixed race person. I asked him what was the difference between a colored person and a black person. He said if you stuck a pencil in a person's hair and it fell out then that person in colored, if it stuck in the person's hair they were black.

ETA:So it seems like the person should just identify however they want since either way, someone's going to be thinking they're not who they say they are.  Of course a person can identify themselves however they want but it does not mean other people will identify them that way.  My son can call himself white all he wants but I better teach him the challenges of being a black man because most white people out there will see him as such and treat him as such.  (the quotes on this are all funky)

 

-- Edited by Forty-two on Monday 19th of November 2012 09:17:31 AM

Forty-two wrote:

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tigerlily wrote:

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I'm not sure I understand why it matters? I assume a person is whatever they identify themselves as. If they are 50/50 of two backgrounds, then why is it that they should be more one thing than another and called "passing" as their choice? That terminology makes it sound negative - like they are denying who they really are. But if they identify as the other, then they'd be "passing" as that too.

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This reminds me of a discussion we had on the original board where people were talking about bi-racial people.  I posted a poll asking how did you refer to a bi-racial person (black and white).  So 85% said black and the rest said bi-racial.  I should have included white but it did not occur to me in a million years that someone who was bi-racial would call themsleves white because people could see that they were not (not that how they look would be relevant  where I live). So DQM's story truly intrigues me.  For me to understand it I need to liken it to the male person who self-identifies as a female even though people don't see them as female and biologically they have that biology that makes them male.

In this country with hypodescent-one drop "mind-set"- I find your post interesting.  Maybe because of where I live, no bi-racial person would refer to themselves as white anymore than a guy would refer to himself as female.  Obama could refer to himself as white by self-identification logic but do people see him as white? No, they see him as black or bi-racial, I have never seen any polls or studies where people would call him white.  Once asked what he considered himself, he answered whenever her tried to get a cab in NYC he knew he was black (which addresses PB's point that you are what people see). 

If my black (bi-racial) son were to try to pass where I live he would have to deny that I was his mother and deny his half sisters.  Apparently it is different in other parts of the country but where I live and have lived he could not go around saying he is a white kid if he has a black mom.  This thread is very enlightening that in other parts of the country you could have a black parent and be thought of as white, it would not happen here and people like my son would not try to do so.

 

-- Edited by Forty-two on Monday 12th of November 2012 10:18:30 AM

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I can see what you mean about how other people would identify a bi-racial person based on their appearance.

I still don't understand how they are "passing" for white if they want to identify with that race. Your son, by identifying/"passing" as black, is denying his father just as much as you feel he would be denying you if he were to identify as white. That's the part I'm not understanding. I wouldn't see him as white or black - he's a kid with a white dad and black mom and he's both. (and I apologize if I have any facts wrong about your family)

I see how people would wonder about black/white bi-racial person if they said they are white and looked obviously not just white. But I would also wonder about someone who said they are black if they look obviously not just black. So it seems like the person should just identify however they want since either way, someone's going to be thinking they're not who they say they are.

Regarding the different cultures I was in Panama and I was sitting with a black Panamanian and he referred to himself as white, dude was blacker than I am but because he had blond hair on his arms he thought of himself as white.

Yes, I think of bi-racial as how they look and their race as black. I think most people think of bi-racial people as black because of American history and the one drop rule. Some people refer to them as bi-racial. Until DQM I had never heard of anyone referring to a bi-racial person as white, I have never seen Halle Berry, Barack Obama, Lenny Kravits, Derek Jeter, etc referred to as white people.  I don't think BO could have become President if he had referred to himself as white.

I do find it interesting that you are 31 and from the South and have the position you do. I wonder what a 50 year old Southerner would think.

I do get what you're saying 42 and it is true that in the US one's racial identity is usually defined by others' perceptions.

But really for lots of people appearance is not that definite and will be judged differently by different people in different contexts. I hate to keep going back to my aunties, but for the two who could have "passed" as black, it wasn't so much a choice of identity as the one they were born into, i.e. a white family.

Whether they were perceived as black alone and out of context/among strangers I don't really know and they have died so can't ask. Looking at photographs not only from the family but in books and on t.v. I've seen of New Orleans at that time, there were lots of people who had at least somewhat "black" features, complexion or hair who identified and were perceived as white. But New Orleans was an anomaly in many ways I guess.

Forty-two wrote:

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Regarding the different cultures I was in Panama and I was sitting with a black Panamanian and he referred to himself as white, dude was blacker than I am but because he had blond hair on his arms he thought of himself as white.

Yes, I think of bi-racial as how they look and their race as black. I think most people think of bi-racial people as black because of American history and the one drop rule. Some people refer to them as bi-racial. Until DQM I had never heard of anyone referring to a bi-racial person as white, I have never seen Halle Berry, Barack Obama, Lenny Kravits, Derek Jeter, etc referred to as white people.  I don't think BO could have become President if he had referred to himself as white.

I do find it interesting that you are 31 and from the South and have the position you do. I wonder what a 50 year old Southerner would think.

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 I was about to say I think the same, but then I thought of my neice.  BIL is half black, half white, but looks 100% black.  Putting him and my DH together (who looks very Irish- pale white with lots of freckles, had red hair growing up and has blue eyes) and telling people they're brothers is hystarical.  They are technically half brothers.

 

But BIL's daughter is half black, half white, and is very pale but with light brown kinky hair.  I wouldn't see her and automatically say her race is black if I didn't know her.  I would say she's probably bi-racial, but not for sure that she's black.

It says that if the pencil fell out the person was White.
If it fell out due to shaking the head they were colored.
If it stuck they were Black.

Further down it says there was a famous case of a White girl who was subjected to this test by a stranger and because the pencil didn't fall out she was kicked out of her all White school even though she had two White parents.

I think I saw a movie about that once.