Invisapeeps 2.0

Forty-two · Guru

RE: How did you pick your college/university?

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
No. That was not in my control. My part was learning and understanding the information. Which I did. Quite admirably. My grades not being what they should have been was more on my Teachers not scoring busywork properly (it shouldn't have been scored at all), which, as I clearly said, wasn't in my control at all.
I am not bashing you we are having a conversation.
You really put the blame on your teachers because you thought you should not have to do busy work? You blame the teachers, women, and minorities for you not going to college? You don't take accountability for the major part in getting into college being your grades, your grades that were not optimal because you would not do your (busywork) homework. I am sure you are successful in you career without this college education so I will stop discussing this. But I have to say this is not the course I will take with my kids because I want them to go to college.

If they scored it improperly... who should the blame fall on? Are you saying they shouldn't get the blame for things that were totally and completely in their control?

You need to re-read what I have posted. I ABSOLUTELY take the blame for everything that was in my control. My grades were NOT in my control. Had they been scored properly they would have been in my control, but they were not.

And, again, I don't blame women or minorities for taking advantage of things that were there for them to take advantage of... I blame those advantages that shouldn't have existed in the first place due to their inherent inequality... and I blame those that created the inequality in the first place that necessitated those inequal advantages.

Forty-two · Guru

I don't mean to pick on you or bash you. And it's none of my business but I do think that working toward a degree would be a great thing for you. I get the hesitance based on being older and not as able to retain material as a young'n but there are advantages to being older in learning that might well make up for it

I got my second Master's at 43. You can do it Richard!

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 17th of November 2012 10:12:33 AM

Forty-two · Guru

How are you saying they scored you improperly? I thought you were saying they should not have given you busy work to do, and I assume that you think they should not have scored this busy work. Who are you to decide what the teacher scores or not? Am I getting the picture right?

huckleberry · Senior Member

Richard, I'm sorry there weren't any scholarships available for White Guys Too Principled to Do Their Homework.

I think your ideas about financial aid available to women and minorities but not to white guys are very distorted. There are certainly some scholarships out there for members of particular groups but these are as likely to be for Greek-Americans Who Play Soccer or Granddaughters of Linotype Operators (I'm being silly but you know what I mean) as for women or people of color. The vast majority of sources of aid for college other than merit scholarships was and is tied to income. College admissions and the criteria for those are a whole different subject of course.

I don't mean to pick on you or bash you. And it's none of my business but I do think that working toward a degree would be a great thing for you. I get the hesitance based on being older and not as able to retain material as a young'n but there are advantages to being older in learning that might well make up for it.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
I don't mean to pick on you or bash you. And it's none of my business but I do think that working toward a degree would be a great thing for you. I get the hesitance based on being older and not as able to retain material as a young'n but there are advantages to being older in learning that might well make up for it

I got my second Master's at 43. You can do it Richard!

-- Edited by Forty-two on Saturday 17th of November 2012 10:12:33 AM

42, how many years had you been away from school when you went back for that 2nd Master's degree?

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

I wanted to go to college as well. That doesn't mean I should have avoided doing what was right though... does it?

ETA: and thank you for proving my point about who had the most power to grade properly (and failed to do so in most cases {the obvious exception being that one teacher I mentioned}).

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Saturday 17th of November 2012 10:29:25 PM

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Are you seriously suggesting that doing the wrong thing is o.k. if the payoff is something one wants?

Guy has 20 Million Dollars in Diamonds in his briefcase... is it o.k. to do the wrong thing and take it from him... just because the payoff (having the diamonds) is wanted?

ETA: My morals don't work that way. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. Doing wrong is NOT acceptable.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Saturday 17th of November 2012 11:15:43 PM

Forty-two · Guru

I got my MBA 18 years prior.

huckleberry · Senior Member

That's terrific, 42. It can't have been easy to return to school after so many years.

Forty-two · Guru

It only would have been tough if I was studying outside of my field of work. I don't know what type of lawyer you are but let's say you are a corporate attorney and then you decided to get your Master's in Organizational Behavior. I don't think it would be too tough.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

A scholarship (or other funding) was the only way I could have afforded to go.

(My apologies, I thought that was clear)

ETA: Just to clarify, my not going wasn't some form of retaliation for NOT getting any assistance. Going simply wasn't possible without it.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Sunday 18th of November 2012 04:57:17 AM

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
How are you saying they scored you improperly? I thought you were saying they should not have given you busy work to do, and I assume that you think they should not have scored this busy work. Who are you to decide what the teacher scores or not? Am I getting the picture right?

I thought I was pretty clear on how it was scored improperly. Busywork should not have been scored at all.

I was not alone in thinking it wrong to score the busywork, but, to answer the insulting question of "who am I to decide"... I'm the one that knows my abilities better than anyone. Abilities that I DID prove I had, on my tests. (had I not aced all my tests, I would have felt differently).

I actually had one teacher in High School that knew how to grade properly. He was my Algebra I teacher (and then later, through a weird turn of events involving a teacher that couldn't finish the year out for some reason that escapes me now, I had him for the final quarter of Senior Year for British Lit).

Forty-two · Guru

RichardInTN wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
How are you saying they scored you improperly? I thought you were saying they should not have given you busy work to do, and I assume that you think they should not have scored this busy work. Who are you to decide what the teacher scores or not? Am I getting the picture right?
I thought I was pretty clear on how it was scored improperly. Busywork should not have been scored at all.
I was not alone in thinking it wrong to score the busywork, but, to answer the insulting question of "who am I to decide"... I'm the one that knows my abilities better than anyone. Abilities that I DID prove I had, on my tests. (had I not aced all my tests, I would have felt differently).

I actually had one teacher in High School that knew how to grade properly. He was my Algebra I teacher (and then later, through a weird turn of events involving a teacher that couldn't finish the year out for some reason that escapes me now, I had him for the final quarter of Senior Year for British Lit).

That is just your opinion. And a fine one to have but it really does not matter if the teacher feels differently. I cannot imagine a student thinking they know better than the teacher on what should be graded and what shouldn't.

You are clearly a principled man and even at this age you feel as though the course you took was the right one.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

huckleberry wrote:
Richard, I'm sorry there weren't any scholarships available for White Guys Too Principled to Do Their Homework.

I think your ideas about financial aid available to women and minorities but not to white guys are very distorted. There are certainly some scholarships out there for members of particular groups but these are as likely to be for Greek-Americans Who Play Soccer or Granddaughters of Linotype Operators (I'm being silly but you know what I mean) as for women or people of color. The vast majority of sources of aid for college other than merit scholarships was and is tied to income. College admissions and the criteria for those are a whole different subject of course.

I don't mean to pick on you or bash you. And it's none of my business but I do think that working toward a degree would be a great thing for you. I get the hesitance based on being older and not as able to retain material as a young'n but there are advantages to being older in learning that might well make up for it.

The snark (bolded/italicized) was unnecessary.

Think what you want, but facts are facts. There are (and were, when I was looking, just after graduating in '85) exactly ZERO scholarships and federal aid incentives exclusively for whites and exactly ZERO exclusively for males (and, obviously, ZERO for white males); and while I don't know the numbers, I do know that there are more than one for Minorities (meaning no non-minorities) and more than one for Women (meaning no males), giving Minority Women even more unfair advantage.

But, again, I don't fault the Minorities and the Women for taking advantage of the unfair advantages. That's just good sense. I fault the institutions that made them (government) and the entities (schools, employers, people) that made them seem necessary.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
How are you saying they scored you improperly? I thought you were saying they should not have given you busy work to do, and I assume that you think they should not have scored this busy work. Who are you to decide what the teacher scores or not? Am I getting the picture right?
I thought I was pretty clear on how it was scored improperly. Busywork should not have been scored at all.
I was not alone in thinking it wrong to score the busywork, but, to answer the insulting question of "who am I to decide"... I'm the one that knows my abilities better than anyone. Abilities that I DID prove I had, on my tests. (had I not aced all my tests, I would have felt differently).

I actually had one teacher in High School that knew how to grade properly. He was my Algebra I teacher (and then later, through a weird turn of events involving a teacher that couldn't finish the year out for some reason that escapes me now, I had him for the final quarter of Senior Year for British Lit).
That is just your opinion. And a fine one to have but it really does not matter if the teacher feels differently. I cannot imagine a student thinking they know better than the teacher on what should be graded and what shouldn't.
You are clearly a principled man and even at this age you feel as though the course you took was the right one.

As I said, I'm not the only one with that opinion. Please note the part of what I wrote (that you quoted) that I italicized.

Forty-two · Guru

Yes, but Richard did that other teacher have authority over the first teacher? If not that is just his opinion. If the school had issue with the teacher counting the busy work than why didn't they stop him/her from taking that approach?

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

No. He didn't have authority over the other teachers. That doesn't make them right and him wrong though.

Forty-two · Guru

My point is the only opinion that matters is the person doing the grading unless the school management overules that teacher. There is no right or wrong it just is.

Again, I appreciate how principled you are but I will never support my kids taking this approach to their school work. They want to go to college.

Forty-two · Guru

RichardInTN wrote:
I wanted to go to college as well. That doesn't mean I should have avoided doing what was right though... does it?

ETA: and thank you for proving my point about who had the most power to grade properly (and failed to do so in most cases {the obvious exception being that one teacher I mentioned}).

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Saturday 17th of November 2012 10:29:25 PM

I guess that depends on how badly someone wants to go to college.

huckleberry · Senior Member

RichardInTN wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
Richard, I'm sorry there weren't any scholarships available for White Guys Too Principled to Do Their Homework.

I think your ideas about financial aid available to women and minorities but not to white guys are very distorted. There are certainly some scholarships out there for members of particular groups but these are as likely to be for Greek-Americans Who Play Soccer or Granddaughters of Linotype Operators (I'm being silly but you know what I mean) as for women or people of color. The vast majority of sources of aid for college other than merit scholarships was and is tied to income. College admissions and the criteria for those are a whole different subject of course.

I don't mean to pick on you or bash you. And it's none of my business but I do think that working toward a degree would be a great thing for you. I get the hesitance based on being older and not as able to retain material as a young'n but there are advantages to being older in learning that might well make up for it.
The snark (bolded/italicized) was unnecessary.
Think what you want, but facts are facts. There are (and were, when I was looking, just after graduating in '85) exactly ZERO scholarships and federal aid incentives exclusively for whites and exactly ZERO exclusively for males (and, obviously, ZERO for white males); and while I don't know the numbers, I do know that there are more than one for Minorities (meaning no non-minorities) and more than one for Women (meaning no males), giving Minority Women even more unfair advantage.

But, again, I don't fault the Minorities and the Women for taking advantage of the unfair advantages. That's just good sense. I fault the institutions that made them (government) and the entities (schools, employers, people) that made them seem necessary.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but that's exactly what you seem to feel you were entitled to be awarded.

There were plenty of white guys who went to college on scholarships in the 80s. I know because I went to college a few years before you should have gone. They got them because they worked harder than you did in high school.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

huckleberry wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
Richard, I'm sorry there weren't any scholarships available for White Guys Too Principled to Do Their Homework.

I think your ideas about financial aid available to women and minorities but not to white guys are very distorted. There are certainly some scholarships out there for members of particular groups but these are as likely to be for Greek-Americans Who Play Soccer or Granddaughters of Linotype Operators (I'm being silly but you know what I mean) as for women or people of color. The vast majority of sources of aid for college other than merit scholarships was and is tied to income. College admissions and the criteria for those are a whole different subject of course.

I don't mean to pick on you or bash you. And it's none of my business but I do think that working toward a degree would be a great thing for you. I get the hesitance based on being older and not as able to retain material as a young'n but there are advantages to being older in learning that might well make up for it.
The snark (bolded/italicized) was unnecessary.
Think what you want, but facts are facts. There are (and were, when I was looking, just after graduating in '85) exactly ZERO scholarships and federal aid incentives exclusively for whites and exactly ZERO exclusively for males (and, obviously, ZERO for white males); and while I don't know the numbers, I do know that there are more than one for Minorities (meaning no non-minorities) and more than one for Women (meaning no males), giving Minority Women even more unfair advantage.

But, again, I don't fault the Minorities and the Women for taking advantage of the unfair advantages. That's just good sense. I fault the institutions that made them (government) and the entities (schools, employers, people) that made them seem necessary.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but that's exactly what you seem to feel you were entitled to be awarded.
There were plenty of white guys who went to college on scholarships in the 80s. I know because I went to college a few years before you should have gone. They got them because they worked harder than you did in high school.

If we ignore the snark, A scholarship I would have deserved would have been "merit based, based on proof of successful comprehension of topics of study".

Now... had there been a scholarship exclusively for "white males with good morals and principles"... yes, I would have taken that... absolutely... just like minorities SHOULD take ones that are only for them or women SHOULD take ones that are only for them. But that in no was suggesting that I deserved one based on that.

Ohh... and no feelings were hurt, the snark was just unnecessary.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

RichardInTN wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that doing the wrong thing is o.k. if the payoff is something one wants?

Guy has 20 Million Dollars in Diamonds in his briefcase... is it o.k. to do the wrong thing and take it from him... just because the payoff (having the diamonds) is wanted?

ETA: My morals don't work that way. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. Doing wrong is NOT acceptable.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Saturday 17th of November 2012 11:15:43 PM

You sure showed the teachers, I'll give you that.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Lots of people (no matter their gender or race) pay for college on their own.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

dqm either wrote:
Lots of people (no matter their gender or race) pay for college on their own.

True. And, for various reasons, lots of people are unable to. Do those that are unable simply cease to exist just because you don't think they should?

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Papa Bear wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that doing the wrong thing is o.k. if the payoff is something one wants?

Guy has 20 Million Dollars in Diamonds in his briefcase... is it o.k. to do the wrong thing and take it from him... just because the payoff (having the diamonds) is wanted?

ETA: My morals don't work that way. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. Doing wrong is NOT acceptable.
You sure showed the teachers, I'll give you that.

It wasn't a question of "showing the teachers"... but I'm not surprised you missed the point.

If you do the something just because others will notice, are you doing it for the right reason? I say: No, you aren't.

If you are doing it because it's the right thing to do... whether anyone see you do it (or not) or agrees with you (or not), are you doing it for the right reason then? I say: Yes, you are.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Right.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

RichardInTN wrote:
dqm either wrote:
Lots of people (no matter their gender or race) pay for college on their own.
True. And, for various reasons, lots of people are unable to. Do those that are unable simply cease to exist just because you don't think they should?

uuummm hmm wha?

How'd you pick your school?
I choose this school because ....
honest answer.

How'd you pick your school?
I didn't qualify for college because ....
honest answer.

How'd you pick your school?
I choose not to go because ....
honest answer.

How'd you pick your school?
I'm a vegetarian. (I didn't get a scholarship)
non answer.

It has nothing to do with me thinking certain people shouldn't exist. I'm well aware that for various reasons lots of people are unable to afford additional schooling. If you didn't go because you couldn't afford it or because you didn't WANT to pay for it those are honest answers and there's nothing wrong with that.

Not getting a scholarship isn't a reason because scholarships aren't a requirement for college any more than is eating meat.

Forty-two · Guru

RichardInTN wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that doing the wrong thing is o.k. if the payoff is something one wants?

Guy has 20 Million Dollars in Diamonds in his briefcase... is it o.k. to do the wrong thing and take it from him... just because the payoff (having the diamonds) is wanted?

ETA: My morals don't work that way. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. Doing wrong is NOT acceptable.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Saturday 17th of November 2012 11:15:43 PM

If you wanted to go to college and an academic scholarship was the way to go you would have done what was required by the teachers as long as it was not illegal. It is very clear that you did not want to go to college very badly at all. To make a stand for something so minor (and based on oppinion) which probably cost you an academic scholorship doesn't seem like the actions af anyone who truly wanted to go to university. It seems like a way to not take accountability, a way to blame someone else for one's failings.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting that doing the wrong thing is o.k. if the payoff is something one wants?

Guy has 20 Million Dollars in Diamonds in his briefcase... is it o.k. to do the wrong thing and take it from him... just because the payoff (having the diamonds) is wanted?

ETA: My morals don't work that way. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. Doing wrong is NOT acceptable.
If you wanted to go to college and an academic scholarship was the way to go you would have done what was required by the teachers as long as it was not illegal. It is very clear that you did not want to go to college very badly at all. To make a stand for something so minor (and based on oppinion) which probably cost you an academic scholorship doesn't seem like the actions af anyone who truly wanted to go to university. It seems like a way to not take accountability, a way to blame someone else for one's failings.

Believe whatever makes you happy. I did what was necessary to go to college: I proved that I knew the things I was required to learn (even in advanced classes, one of which was an AP class that I got full college credit for... although it's probably "expired" {or whatever they call it when you don't use a credit in a timely manner, so you lose it} by now).

You aren't going to accept the fact that I might know just a tiny bit more about my situation than you do (which is fine), but you constantly saying that same pointless inaccurate stuff is just... well... pointless. I'm sure a well educated person like yourself can figure that out.

I'll say it again. I DID want to go to college. But I wasn't going to do the wrong thing just to appease someone. That would have been immoral.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Richard, it may be just as well. Getting into college would have earned you a ton more of that immoral homework.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Papa Bear wrote:
Richard, it may be just as well. Getting into college would have earned you a ton more of that immoral homework.

Bait me all you like PBJ... it won't work.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Getting a job and supporting yourself and your family is not 'failing'.

Going to college doesn't make you a success.

There are a lot of losers that come out of the University system and there are plenty of successful people who never entered it.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

dqm either wrote:
Getting a job and supporting yourself and your family is not 'failing'.

Going to college doesn't make you a success.

There are a lot of losers that come out of the University system and there are plenty of successful people who never entered it.

Good points all!

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Doing homework that has a point isn't immoral. Doing busywork that has no point is (because it goes against "waste not, want not"). It's a waste of perfectly good time that could be spent doing something else.

And I agree that everyone that has the ability and the desire SHOULD be able to go to college. Unfortunately "should" and "can" are two grossly different things.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Monday 19th of November 2012 01:42:38 AM

huckleberry · Senior Member

I guess I'm still having a hard time figuring out why doing homework is immoral or anything at all like stealing money.

Or why taking tests is less immoral than doing homework.

dqm, I don't think that it's necessary to go to college to be a success or being happy. But, barring very unusual circumstances, those with the ability and desire to get a college education can and should get one.

Forty-two · Guru

RichardInTN wrote:
Doing homework that has a point isn't immoral. Doing busywork that has no point is (because it goes against "waste not, want not"). It's a waste of perfectly good time that could be spent doing something else.

And I agree that everyone that has the ability and the desire SHOULD be able to go to college. Unfortunately "should" and "can" are two grossly different things.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Monday 19th of November 2012 01:42:38 AM

I don't understand how you are using that phrase in this context.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
Doing homework that has a point isn't immoral. Doing busywork that has no point is (because it goes against "waste not, want not"). It's a waste of perfectly good time that could be spent doing something else.

And I agree that everyone that has the ability and the desire SHOULD be able to go to college. Unfortunately "should" and "can" are two grossly different things.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Monday 19th of November 2012 01:42:38 AM
I don't understand how you are using that phrase in this context.

Simple, In this context, the busy work is a waste of time. Time that could be spent on actual homework (like a research project, or a literature reading assignment). Remember, I only skipped the busy work. I did reasonable homework that served a valid purpose.

Cactus · Senior Member

Richard, what I am curious about is if this issue has come up in your working life. IME, most jobs involve considerable wastes of time! For example, I have a 9-5 type job. I know I don't really need to be here 8 hrs a day, 5 days a week to get done what I need to.

IIRC, you don't have that type of job exactly..but haven't you found much of work to be a waste of time? I certainly have! (and it's quite annoying and frustrating)

Forty-two · Guru

Cactus I cannot imagine having a job that did not waste time particularly if it is corporate. The endless meetings!! Unless you are a production worker I cannot imagine that most jobs are not filled with waste and busy work.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Cactus wrote:
Richard, what I am curious about is if this issue has come up in your working life. IME, most jobs involve considerable wastes of time! For example, I have a 9-5 type job. I know I don't really need to be here 8 hrs a day, 5 days a week to get done what I need to.

IIRC, you don't have that type of job exactly..but haven't you found much of work to be a waste of time? I certainly have! (and it's quite annoying and frustrating)

I've been fortunate in my jobs in that I've never come across a boss or company policy that wanted me to do something that had no useful purpose so badly that I was forced to waste time, effort, or supplies doing somthing unnecessary. In the rare cases when something I thought to be a waste of time, I'd explained WHY it was a waste of time, they always agreed with me.

Now, that doesn't mean other people would have that same experience at other jobs... it's just been my personal experience.

Cactus · Senior Member

I am happy for you that it worked out that way, Richard. It's pretty rare, I think.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Oh, I know I've been lucky (in this regard). Luck tends to even out in my belief.

Makes me wish I hadn't been as lucky in that part of my work world sometimes though... because that took luck from other aspects of my life.