Invisapeeps 2.0

Cactus · Senior Member

RE: Should I tell my infertile Asian wife that I want all-white babies?

Cactus · Senior Member

RichardInTN wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Richard I would think to avoid a lot of explanation if a couple were to have a child that they would want the kid to resemble the parents this would avoid a lot of discussion. The best way to achieve that is to get an Asian egg. It is not racist for parents to want their kids to look like them. As a parent I would pity the kid who had to keep explaining why he did not look like his parents unless the kid was adopted.

She (I assume) does not want the kid to be only Asian, he, on the other hand wants the kid to be only white, the latter is the racist part, he wants his kid to be ONLY white. I don't want it both ways I If she were to say she only wanted an Asian kid I would say she is 1) racist and 2) BSC for marrying a white man.
This is why you had the conversation recently with dqm. You don't understand the concept of "it's o.k. if the kids don't resemble Mom AND Dad".
Again. You can't have it both ways... if it's NOT racist for her to want Asian... then it's NOT racist for him to want white.
And (yet again), remember... there wouldn't even be egg shopping if the wife wasn't infertile. He stated (very plainly, I might add) that he had no issue with having a mixed child if the wife were fertile. So let's drop the "if he didn't want mixed kids he shouldn't have married an Asian woman" crap... o.k.?
She doesn't want Asian only he wants white only. Why don't you address that? That is the point you seem to be missing.
When it comes to the egg, you are suggestring that if she says "Asian only" that it's not racist. You are wrong, based on your assertion that it's wrong for him to say "white only".
You seriously need to pick a side. Either it's racist to have a preference or it isn't. Pick one (I say it isn't). I'd have respect for your argument if you would just do that one little thing. Pick a side. As it is I can't follow your argument because you keep flipping sides in the same paragraph. Sometimes even in the same sentence.
I am not flip flopping. She DOES NOT want an Asian only baby if she did she would be as racist as he is.
I didn't say "asian only BABY" I'm JUST referring to the egg. This is all about the egg. Remember: an egg is required because she cannot provide one.
If she wanted an Asian EGG and excluded all other eggs from every other race, would she be racist? Yes or no?

Let's reverse the example: Let's suppose the husband was shooting blanks... and they had to shop around for sperm: Would he be racist for wanting white sperm?

I am repeating myself now, but the reversed example would actually be if they couldn't use the husband's sperm and the wife insisted they use Asian sperm, resulting in all Asian baby, and yes, I would consider that the same as this situation.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
Well since the egg all by itself is not going to turn into a child and clearly his sperm is involved this is about the resulting baby particularly since he wrote "but frankly, now that I have the choice, I’d prefer my kids to be white."

The next sentence (that you conveniently forgot to include) gives context as to why he wants this though. It has nothing to do with his being racist. It has to do with him wanting what's best for his kids:

"We live in a fairly homogeneously white area and at the end of the day I want my kids to look like me, their cousins, and the kids they'll go to school with."

If a soon to be parent wants to choose something that will advance their child (intelligence, athleticism, looks, et cetera) There's nothing wrong with that. and in this situation there's nothing racist about him wanting a white egg SINCE HIS WIFE CANNOT CONTRIBUTE one of her own.

At this point in the thread, we have gotten to the point where we are each just repeating ourselves... neither will be swayed by the points of the other... so... I'm going to end my participation with: "believe whatever makes you happy".

Cactus · Senior Member

I am trying to imagine telling someone "Now that we have options I'd prefer the baby not be your race at all" and I really can't. I don't see my relationship surviving that.

Cactus · Senior Member

RichardInTN wrote:
Cactus wrote:
I am trying to imagine telling someone "Now that we have options I'd prefer the baby not be your race at all" and I really can't. I don't see my relationship surviving that.
Why not go with something that wasn't insulting... like: "I'd rather the baby be part of both of us... but since we don't have that option, and we HAVE to do it this way, why not make life as easy as possible for the child?"

Richard, of course I was not just envisioning telling my partner the exact quote I have provided above. What I wrote above is the meaning regardless. I cannot imagine any way I could deliver this message that would not be relationship ending.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

I usually don't comment on the Prudie letters. It's so much more fun to read threads by people we 'know' so the story can evolve and we can get more details but this one is too funny!

I actually have some sympathy for the guy and don't think he's racist at all. I just think he's scared.

I've known too many men who say they want sons because being a boy is easier. Doesn't mean they hate women. It just means that the only life experience they have is in being male and they are confident that they can parent a male.

Given the choice they would probably choose for their child to be hetero sexual too. That doesn't make them bigots. It just means they don't feel equiped to deal with challenges that they've never faced themselves.

I'm certain that while a male hetero child would be the 'order' any of these guys would place if they had a choice, that doesn't mean that if they naturally got a girl or a homo son that they wouldn't love them.

I can't find any fault with a guy saying that given the choice he'd like a specific gender, race or sexual orientation. The reason it wouldn't bother me is because he's a man and that means he doesn't get a choice. If I was his wife I wouldn't give one hoot because the final decision about who gets to live in my body is always mine. So he could ask for White babies until he's BLUE in the face. And then he'd get what I decided to give him.

I find it funny that no one considered that maybe the Wife wants White babies too. Or maybe she wants mixed race babies or maybe she wants Asian babies. Maybe she wants one each. Bottom line is it sucks to be him because she has final say.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

dqm either wrote:
I usually don't comment on the Prudie letters. It's so much more fun to read threads by people we 'know' so the story can evolve and we can get more details but this one is too funny!

I actually have some sympathy for the guy and don't think he's racist at all. I just think he's scared.

I've known too many men who say they want sons because being a boy is easier. Doesn't mean they hate women. It just means that the only life experience they have is in being male and they are confident that they can parent a male.

Given the choice they would probably choose for their child to be hetero sexual too. That doesn't make them bigots. It just means they don't feel equiped to deal with challenges that they've never faced themselves.

I'm certain that while a male hetero child would be the 'order' any of these guys would place if they had a choice, that doesn't mean that if they naturally got a girl or a homo son that they wouldn't love them.

I can't find any fault with a guy saying that given the choice he'd like a specific gender, race or sexual orientation. The reason it wouldn't bother me is because he's a man and that means he doesn't get a choice. If I was his wife I wouldn't give one hoot because the final decision about who gets to live in my body is always mine. So he could ask for White babies until he's BLUE in the face. And then he'd get what I decided to give him.

I find it funny that no one considered that maybe the Wife wants White babies too. Or maybe she wants mixed race babies or maybe she wants Asian babies. Maybe she wants one each. Bottom line is it sucks to be him because she has final say.

Thank you, DQM.

Cactus · Senior Member

dqm either wrote:

I find it funny that no one considered that maybe the Wife wants White babies too. Or maybe she wants mixed race babies or maybe she wants Asian babies. Maybe she wants one each. Bottom line is it sucks to be him because she has final say.

I actually did consider this, and do think it is possible. And while I find his preference very troubling, if he wants to broach this topic at all, I think it would be more advisable to ask his wife what HER requirements for the egg donor are. If she insists on an Asian donor, he has his answer. If she suggests a white donor he also has his answer. If she doesn't care about race they may well end up with a white donor without him having to specify it, especially if they live in such a white area as he says.

I personally would find his attitude disturbing and want to know about it. And from the other side, as I said, I cannot imagine saying this to someone. To me, the time to consider whether you are equipped to raise a particular sort of baby is when you are choosing your partner and choosing to reproduce with that partner (or at all).

Cactus · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
If a woman of a different race wanted/actively sought out having a baby of the privialge race I would think there is a self-loathing thing going on. So when white people want to adopt black or Asian kids they are helping out a group that is looked down upon in the US and it is admirable. If an Asian or black were to seek out having only a white kid I would think there is some self loathing going on. So in the black community for generations they have been bombarded with "white is right" white is beautiful, lighten yoru race. Probably based on legacies of dark is in the field light is in the master's house. Black celebrities are lightened when photographed when put on magazine covers, it is said that it helps with photography or some such, yeah right. I hope that Asians are not as "bad" as blacks with self loathing and assimilation. But based on things that I have read it may be the case.

So to cut to the chase a non-white woman looking for a white kid speaks to me as self-loathing. I recognize there are many people out there who are like that.

I feel the same way. I am sure people will argue they just want to improve the baby's lot in life etc.

Though, I don't really think it's admirable when white people want to adopt black or Asian babies. I am not comfortable with any such racial preference but it's case by case.

eta: If prospective adoptive parents express a willingness to adopt a child of any race, I think that is good-a preference would, to me, raise questions.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 10:16:04 AM

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 10:16:42 AM

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

I think you're missing my point.

What if in their fertility process, not only could they choose which egg they wanted but they could choose which sperm.

Ok now the father expresses a preference for a son. Does that somehow mean that he's sexist and prejudiced against women? Or that he somehow thinks men are better than women? Of course not. All it means is that given the choice he'd pick a son over a daughter. If he was never given a choice it wouldn't matter but once he has been given the choice it's not anyone's place to tell him he's bad or wrong for it.

Mother still gets final say.

If 'particular sort of baby' is secret code for the baby's race, picking your partner is still no guarantee. There have been documented cases of White parents giving birth to Black babies and vice versa.

So what if his wife is Asian. If having bio children with her is out of the question he's no longer restricted to that 'particular sort' of baby.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:
Spoiler
Prudence,
My wife, who is infertile, and I have recently decided to have children—we’d like eventually to have three—using an egg donor. (We decided against adoption because we would have no biological connection to our children.) We have just settled on this option but it has thrown open a whole new dilemma for me. I am white and my wife is East Asian. Her race isn't a problem for me and I would have had no difficulty raising mixed race children, but frankly, now that I have the choice, I’d prefer my kids to be white. We live in a fairly homogeneously white area and at the end of the day I want my kids to look like me, their cousins, and the kids they'll go to school with. I don't think my wife has ever experienced racism, but I think she might understand my point of view. Then I think I maybe I’m just convincing myself about this. I really could use a second opinion before I broach the subject with her.
—Want To Be a Dad
I didn't include Prudie's answer, which is not the interesting part.

I very very much disagree. The answer is very telling to me.

Spoiler: Reince Priebus, is that you? I can see how increasing the white population might be a good strategy for raising GOP turnout on election day. However, if you’re not the chairman of the Republican National Committee, and you only want to increase the white population because you don’t want your kids to resemble your Asian wife, then it’s good you ran this by me before proposing it to her. How generous of you not to have a “problem” with the fact that you married an Asian woman. And how grotesque that now that her eggs are out of the picture, you’ve decided this is a great opportunity to keep your kids from being mixed race. There’s just no way to express to your wife the thoughts you’ve conveyed here without sounding as if you’re a spokesperson for the Council of Conservative Citizens. There are many ways to become parents, as you know. With adoption, sometimes it’s obvious that the children are not the biological offspring of the parents. In the case of sperm or egg donation, the parents may choose to keep private that they used assisted reproduction, which is possible by selecting a donor who resembles the infertile parent. (I still think the child should be told about this, but that’s a separate issue.) Now that you and your wife have decided on egg donation, you first need to just listen to what she’s thinking about the criteria for your donor. It could be she very much wants an Asian woman. It could be she just wants someone healthy and smart to donate and she doesn’t care about race. But your desire for your future kids to look only like you because you have a pre-Brown v. Board of Education view about their social lives means that before you have children, you need to do a serious reassessment of your assumptions about the world they are going to live in.

I take strong exception to the bolded.

A husband had a question about a personal relationship with his wife. Personal relationships are why advice columnists are sought. What he got (and what I read) was an ad-hominem diatribe against the Republican party.

Cactus, I can't deny that your feelings are so strong, such a question from a husband would be a deal-breaker. That's an issue of personal relationships. My own feeling is that such a leap from a personal relationship question to an ad-hominem attack on half the country is its own deal-breaker for columnists.

ETA: I was going to weigh in on the actual issue, but I couldn't possibly improve on DQM's answer.

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Friday 7th of December 2012 12:31:46 PM

Cactus · Senior Member

I'm not sure you're talking about exactly the same thing, dqm. I don't think we are saying an Asian woman should have any opposition to raising a white child but why would she specifically seek to avoid raising an Asian one?

Also, these choices are not occuring in a vacuum -they occur in a world where there is status attached to race and there is social conditioning that affects the way people view themselves and others.

If an Asian woman is with a white man that is one thing but if she dates white men exclusively (absent a reason such as an all white environment) then I would wonder.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 02:16:27 PM

Cactus · Senior Member

People are going to be attracted to whom they're attracted to, but social conditioning plays a role and I don't think it's just a meaningless personal preference that doesn't have anything to say about race and racism.

I believe studies have backed up the perception that black men date and marry outside their race more than black women do and that Asian women date and marry outside their race more than Asian men do.

A few years ago a dating site (this isn't what I mean by the studies above btw) did a survey on racial preferences in dating. IIRC, it showed that white was the most desired race to date, that Asian woman showed a preference for white men that surpassed even that of white women and that black women and Asian men were, as has been suspected, the "least wanted." I seem to remember hearing somewhere that they are also the least married in the USA.

So, of course, people should be with those they are attracted to, but I don't believe it has nothing to do with racism.

eta: I'm not saying people are racists for whom they're attracted to (though they certainly can be) so much as that they are reflections of a racist society. I don't really want to make it about individuals rather than a system.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 04:15:59 PM

Cactus · Senior Member

Here's a link to a blog post on that okcupid study: http://www.racialicious.com/2009/10/09/racialicious-loves-ok-cupid/

It's not exactly what I remember as far as what's in the article in the link. I couldn't go to actual article on okcupid from work.

eta: fixed link

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 04:54:17 PM

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 04:54:54 PM

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 05:03:44 PM

Forty-two · Guru

If a woman of a different race wanted/actively sought out having a baby of the privialge race I would think there is a self-loathing thing going on. So when white people want to adopt black or Asian kids they are helping out a group that is looked down upon in the US and it is admirable. If an Asian or black were to seek out having only a white kid I would think there is some self loathing going on. So in the black community for generations they have been bombarded with "white is right" white is beautiful, lighten yoru race. Probably based on legacies of dark is in the field light is in the master's house. Black celebrities are lightened when photographed when put on magazine covers, it is said that it helps with photography or some such, yeah right. I hope that Asians are not as "bad" as blacks with self loathing and assimilation. But based on things that I have read it may be the case.

So to cut to the chase a non-white woman looking for a white kid speaks to me as self-loathing. I recognize there are many people out there who are like that.

Forty-two · Guru

Cactus wrote:
People are going to be attracted to whom they're attracted to, but social conditioning plays a role and I don't think it's just a meaningless personal preference that doesn't have anything to say about race and racism.

I believe studies have backed up the perception that black men date and marry outside their race more than black women do and that Asian women date and marry outside their race more than Asian men do.

A few years ago a dating site (this isn't what I mean by the studies above btw) did a survey on racial preferences in dating. IIRC, it showed that white was the most desired race to date, that Asian woman showed a preference for white men that surpassed even that of white women and that black women and Asian men were, as has been suspected, the "least wanted." I seem to remember hearing somewhere that they are also the least married in the USA.

So, of course, people should be with those they are attracted to, but I don't believe it has nothing to do with racism.
eta: I'm not saying people are racists for whom they're attracted to (though they certainly can be) so much as that they are reflections of a racist society. I don't really want to make it about individuals rather than a system.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 04:15:59 PM

I am familiar with that study and I think that there several things in play 1) the opitomy of beauty in the US is the white women. 2) In the black community it is the "thing" to get to show that you are truly successful. Look at all of the black atheletes married to white women. I see it often in the corporate world, black guy gets ahead-boom he gets a white woman. 24% of black men marry white women where only 9% of black women marry white men. 3) The stereotype of the black woman is "angry black woman"...well that stereotype did not come from no where. White women are perceived as more docile, accomadating and sweeter than the typical black woman. Black women and Asian men are the least desired groups for sure.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Friday 7th of December 2012 06:20:13 PM

Cactus · Senior Member

dqm either wrote:
I think you're missing my point.

What if in their fertility process, not only could they choose which egg they wanted but they could choose which sperm.

Ok now the father expresses a preference for a son. Does that somehow mean that he's sexist and prejudiced against women? Or that he somehow thinks men are better than women? Of course not. All it means is that given the choice he'd pick a son over a daughter. If he was never given a choice it wouldn't matter but once he has been given the choice it's not anyone's place to tell him he's bad or wrong for it.

Mother still gets final say.

If 'particular sort of baby' is secret code for the baby's race, picking your partner is still no guarantee. There have been documented cases of White parents giving birth to Black babies and vice versa.

So what if his wife is Asian. If having bio children with her is out of the question he's no longer restricted to that 'particular sort' of baby.

It may not be my place to say he's bad for it, but if I were married to him it would be my place to say I don't want to have a baby with him at all. If I said something like this, it would be my partner's place to say he doesn't want to be with someone with this preference.

Cactus · Senior Member

PBJ, I don't think Prudie should have brought all that into it either. As I mentioned on the first page, I found her answer tiresome. I do think her answer is telling about HER, but not so much about the question. I thought the question was interesting & wanted to discuss it, and her answer, though it may say something about her, sheds no light on this and is something of a separate topic (one I don't mind discussing, it was just not my focus) .
I do think Prudie is annoying, smug, and often wrong.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Cactus wrote:
PBJ, I don't think Prudie should have brought all that into it either. As I mentioned on the first page, I found her answer tiresome. I do think her answer is telling about HER, but not so much about the question. I thought the question was interesting & wanted to discuss it, and her answer, though it may say something about her, sheds no light on this and is something of a separate topic (one I don't mind discussing, it was just not my focus) .
I do think Prudie is annoying, smug, and often wrong.

Oh good, I was wondering if it was just me.

tigerlily · Guru

Cactus wrote:
dqm either wrote:

I find it funny that no one considered that maybe the Wife wants White babies too. Or maybe she wants mixed race babies or maybe she wants Asian babies. Maybe she wants one each. Bottom line is it sucks to be him because she has final say.
I actually did consider this, and do think it is possible. And while I find his preference very troubling, if he wants to broach this topic at all, I think it would be more advisable to ask his wife what HER requirements for the egg donor are. If she insists on an Asian donor, he has his answer. If she suggests a white donor he also has his answer. If she doesn't care about race they may well end up with a white donor without him having to specify it, especially if they live in such a white area as he says.
I personally would find his attitude disturbing and want to know about it. And from the other side, as I said, I cannot imagine saying this to someone. To me, the time to consider whether you are equipped to raise a particular sort of baby is when you are choosing your partner and choosing to reproduce with that partner (or at all).

Exactly what Cactus said, especially the bolded.

Also, I don't think it's wrong for him to have a preference but I do fault his wording of it ("I want them to look like me and my family"). And I think it would be divorce/no-children-ever worthy if he kept pushing the issue after she said it's important to her to have the child resemble her and her family as much as possible with at least the racial features they could share by using an asian donor.

I don't know if his preference is racist or not (as in, white is better vs white would give the child more opportunity). I mostly took exception to the fact that he didn't mention at all what his wife wants.

It almost reads like..."hey, since the kid isn't biologically yours, your race (and all those physical characteristics you could share with the asian egg child) doesn't matter anymore and let's just make it 100% like me!!!" It's...dismissive of the fact that even if she can't share the DNA, she can still share physical characteristics.

Honestly, I can't imagine that they've discussed not adopting b/c they want the biological link at least thru the father, but haven't broached the topic of what they want to look for in a donor egg. For me, that would be the first thing discussed after making the decision to use a donor.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

42, your thought process is so foriegn to me. I was raised:
All people were created equal.

So if a White person seeks out a Black or Asian baby I see the same heart as a Black or Asian person seeking out a White baby.

From what little I know about adoption, people seek Chinese girls because they're easier to get. From the even less that I know about egg extraction it's likely easier to get a White donor.

Maybe it's because I grew up in a Navy town where everyone was mixed together but I fail to see how picking a White baby is any more self loathing than picking a White husband. Since she did pick a White man I'd say she's at least open to the possibility of having White children since that could have happened anyway.

I think your argument is silly. If we all loved people who look like us to prove our self esteem then only losers would be hetero sexual. All the enlightened and truly confident people would seek an exact match of themselves in a partner and be gay.

And gay White women would rescue little White female babies from White hetero sexuals so full of self loathing that they couldn't stick to their own kind.

Gay White males would take the little White boy babies.
Gay Asian men would be SOL because the self loathing Asian couples wouldn't give up their sons no matter how much they hated themselves for having sex with the opposite gender.

It's kind of ridiculous to suggest that people hate themselves based on what their relatives look like. I have plenty of Native American, Mexican, White, Black and a few Phillipino relatives. We don't have self loathing yet it's not possible for us to all look alike.

huckleberry · Senior Member

DQM, I love you but I'm having trouble following your thought process here.

We can only base our opinions on what the guy says (or what the column says he said, these things are often edited for effect as I understand it). He says he wants his kids to look like him and that he wants the babies to be white.

A non-white baby would look just as much like him as a white baby, except it wouldn't be white.

To me, thos are racist sentiments. And I had (white, all dead now) relatives who were out-and-out bigots and vigorously opposed to white people having children with non-whites. The reason they would most often offer (and the reason offered most often publically by groups like Council of Concerned citizens) is that it's hard on the kids.

Maybe so, but the reason it's hard ont he kids is because of racism, which these folks wish to perpetuate by preventing different colored people from marrying or having children.

It's like saying women shouldn't be construction workers because the male construction workers will give them a hard time.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

An Asian woman dating one White guy is ok but exclusively dating White men would make you wonder.

Wonder what?

If a White woman exclusively dated White men would you be wondering whatever it is you wonder?
Why not?

What's so different in your mind about an Asian woman and a White woman that they can't have the same dating criteria without you questioning it?

I really have no idea what difference you see. I'm not even sure that I want to know. Thinking like that feels like I'm trying to stuff life into boxes that are too small.

If you believe that we're all equal then wondering why an Asian is attracted to Whites is the same as wondering why anybody is attracted to anybody else.

I can't imagine how much energy it must take to keep people in all those boxes. I'm like 'to hell with that. Be attracted to whomever you choose.'

Cactus · Senior Member

The same site (racialicious) did a follow up post: http://www.racialicious.com/2009/10/09/of-okcupid-and-denials-of-racism/

The comment the author mentioned having left a okcupid is a better explanation of the point I was trying to make.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

Catcus you are not making any sense.

According to what you wrote EVERYBODY is racist.

I'm happy to inform you that's not true. There are people who truly don't care all the way to people who have a strong preference. But even among the people who have a strong preference that doesn't make them racist.

As for those studies on dating... it makes perfect sense that anyone seriously looking for a mate would be open to dating Whites because duh... most people in this country are White so why limit yourself?

I have my theories on why Black women are the least married and it has more to do with economics than sexual desirability or baby making. Trust me when I tell you that Black women are faaaaaar from the 'least wanted'.

Those computers could pop out numbers based on age, weight and income too and the results wouldn't be any more telling about personal preference. Based on that it'd mean that as a society we don't value the old, the over weight or poor people. That's not the way it is in my world. Baby boomers are a very powerful economic and political force. Fat people are EVERYWHERE! As a nation we have tremendous compassion for the poor. Just because we don't want to marry an old fat person doesn't mean that we are 'racist' against them.

Cactus · Senior Member

dqm either wrote:
Catcus you are not making any sense.

According to what you wrote EVERYBODY is racist.

I'm happy to inform you that's not true. There are people who truly don't care all the way to people who have a strong preference. But even among the people who have a strong preference that doesn't make them racist.

As for those studies on dating... it makes perfect sense that anyone seriously looking for a mate would be open to dating Whites because duh... most people in this country are White so why limit yourself?

I have my theories on why Black women are the least married and it has more to do with economics than sexual desirability or baby making. Trust me when I tell you that Black women are faaaaaar from the 'least wanted'.

Those computers could pop out numbers based on age, weight and income too and the results wouldn't be any more telling about personal preference. Based on that it'd mean that as a society we don't value the old, the over weight or poor people. That's not the way it is in my world. Baby boomers are a very powerful economic and political force. Fat people are EVERYWHERE! As a nation we have tremendous compassion for the poor. Just because we don't want to marry an old fat person doesn't mean that we are 'racist' against them.

It's not about being open to dating whites...it's about desiring to date whites above all others, including others of one's own race. It's about not being open to dating non whites. On dating websites, people can specifically check the boxes of the races they are willing to date. If they don't want to limit themselves, why wouldn't they check all the boxes? Why are they ruling out people based on race at all?

As I said, I'm not accusing anyone of being racist for their racial preferences. But that doesn't mean we're not all conditioned by the racism of the society in which we live, including with regards to standards of beauty, status, and stereotypes, as 42 mentions in her post.

Also, I am more doubtful than you seem to be with our society's attitude towards the old, the fat, and the poor. But that's a different topic.

Forty-two · Guru

It would break my heart and I would feel as though I failed as a mother if my son said he only wanted to date white women.

dqm either · Don't Quote Me

???????????????????

Almost 100% certain it's your son who has a White father. Completely and utterly confused why it would be considered so terrible for him to be attracted to White women but decided that I've had enough of crazy town so I'm leaving.

The horrors of White women aside, this country IS fat, the baby boomers (ie old people) have tremendous political power and if I had to be poor I'd rather be poor in America than anywhere else in the world.

Actually I HAVE been poor and I doubt that there are many places that afford you the opportunity to improve your station in life the way you can in America. Most places you are born into a status that you are not allowed to escape. Our society is not as bad as you are making it out to be.

Forty-two · Guru

DQM, Catus explained it in the post above mine.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Ahem, DQM, we baby boomers are a bit sensitive about being called "old people"

Papa Bear · Senior Member

huckleberry wrote:
Ahem, DQM, we baby boomers are a bit sensitive about being called "old people"

IVY, huck. We white guys are a bit sensitive about being called "racist" or "sexist" every time we turn around.

huckleberry · Senior Member

PB, do you mean I called you racist or sexist?

I don't remember doing that--can't think why I would since I have no evidence that you are either of those things.

I did say upthread you were being pedantic but I was referring to the post, not your nature.

Sorry if I offended

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

I think PBJ was saying that more in general (because it's true, that IS something we do deal with), not because of anything you said huckleberry. At least that's the way I read it.

huckleberry · Senior Member

Hope you're right, Richard, I try not to throw around invective but sometimes my tongue (fingers?) gets the best of me

I was joking about baby boomer sensitivity, though, we ARE old people after all. Cool old people, but old just the same

Aqua · Veteran Member

Cactus wrote:
If an Asian woman is with a white man that is one thing but if she dates white men exclusively (absent a reason such as an all white environment) then I would wonder.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 02:16:27 PM

Oops.

Though I have always been in a MOSTLY white environment.

But given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper, I'm probably looking for pretty much exclusively white dudes because most culturally Scandinavian-American midwesterners are white by definition. It's not an explicit preference but I would say it's a de facto one. So...oops.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

The upshot is that Aqua isn't racist because she isn't white, and as such isn't capable of racism. Whereas any white guy (or woman) stating a racial preference is racist.

Huck yes, I was speaking more in general.

ETA Am being my own brand of facetious because I actually agree with her point. But that's not how society sees it now, nor will it for some time. Prudie in her response demonstrated that.

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 11:26:38 AM

Cactus · Senior Member

Papa Bear wrote:
The upshot is that Aqua isn't racist because she isn't white, and as such isn't capable of racism. Whereas any white guy (or woman) stating a racial preference is racist.

Huck yes, I was speaking more in general.
ETA Am being my own brand of facetious because I actually agree with her point. But that's not how society sees it now, nor will it for some time. Prudie in her response demonstrated that.

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 11:26:38 AM

Of course, I believe non whites can be racist/influenced by racism, and frequently are. I also think people can be racist against their own race.

I don't think Aqua's responses here indicate racism .

I think she has pretty rigid criteria (I don't mean that pejoratively) for a mate, and doesn't meet that many nonwhite people, so the chances of meeting a non white male that shares her background and meets her other criteria were not great.

It doesn't seem like these posts of yours are actually in response to anyone ITT, are they? They are just general comments?

ETA: I'm not objecting to anyone making general comments, but just to clarify because I think people could take your posts as attributing to them words or attitides for which there is no evidence here.

-- Edited by Cactus on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 11:48:02 AM

-- Edited by Cactus on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 11:49:29 AM

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
My remarks are general (or to Prudie) unless I'm actually naming someone. If I let on otherwise, I am sorry.

However, *Cactus* I do have a question. You say that Aqua has a rigid set of standards for a mate, and you mean that not pejoratively. This is fine as far as it goes. Let's also stipulate that nobody takes issue with Aqua. Agreed and rock on Aqua.

So say I have requirements similarly rigid, that happen to coincide almost exclusively with women of Italian / Roman descent. Are you just as OK with my standards as you are with hers?

My take on the subject is I can understand someone not wanting to date someone outside of their race. I never had that thought (actually) but as my kids live with a white step dad they have brought up issues with interracial relationships that make it less than ideal. I understand that and we all have our things that we overlook. Would I prefer to be married to a black man so that I don't have to explain things about black culture, hell even explain things about my hair etc., hell, yeah. And my kids see it and would make a different choice. Me, I would not date or marry a guy without a college degree, makes significantly less money, hasn't traveled the world, etc. so with my criteria I may end up with a white man like I did. But I certainly would not date white men exclusively I would prefer black men because I would not have to explain things to him.

I don't know about Aqua, I think she is saying pretty much the same thing that I am, she has a certain set of criteria and if the person happens to be white or Asian than so be it, but I am not sure.

If someone has a list of dating/marriage criteria and they say I don't want to date a person that is of the same race some people would have issue with that. Me personally, if my kids were not interested in dating black people I would think there was an issue with self loathing that is so common in the black community and I would think I failed as a mother to them.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 01:06:49 PM

Forty-two · Guru

Aqua wrote:
Cactus wrote:

If an Asian woman is with a white man that is one thing but if she dates white men exclusively (absent a reason such as an all white environment) then I would wonder.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 02:16:27 PM

Oops.
Though I have always been in a MOSTLY white environment.
But given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper, I'm probably looking for pretty much exclusively white dudes because most culturally Scandinavian-American midwesterners are white by definition. It's not an explicit preference but I would say it's a de facto one. So...oops.

Why do you say oops? I must have missed something here.

Aqua · Veteran Member

Forty-two wrote:
Aqua wrote:
Cactus wrote:

If an Asian woman is with a white man that is one thing but if she dates white men exclusively (absent a reason such as an all white environment) then I would wonder.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 02:16:27 PM

Oops.
Though I have always been in a MOSTLY white environment.
But given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper, I'm probably looking for pretty much exclusively white dudes because most culturally Scandinavian-American midwesterners are white by definition. It's not an explicit preference but I would say it's a de facto one. So...oops.
Why do you say oops? I must have missed something here.

I'm being half facetious but half serious; I've only EVER dated white men, which has been asserted to be problematic. It's partly based on who I'm around and partly based on my criteria for someone who is VERY similar to me in terms of family background and family culture. I look for sameness (there's no "better" or "worse," just "similar" or "dissimilar"). That implicitly wipes out most anyone other than white men, even though living where I do, I do have opportunities to meet and get to know men from other backgrounds.

Cactus · Senior Member

Aqua wrote:
Cactus wrote:

If an Asian woman is with a white man that is one thing but if she dates white men exclusively (absent a reason such as an all white environment) then I would wonder.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 02:16:27 PM

Oops.
Though I have always been in a MOSTLY white environment.
But given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper, I'm probably looking for pretty much exclusively white dudes because most culturally Scandinavian-American midwesterners are white by definition. It's not an explicit preference but I would say it's a de facto one. So...oops.

But I don't think you would rule someone out based on race per se, would you? I also don't think you would assume that an Asian American male couldn't have your background, just that it wasn't common enough in your environment for one to be your probable mate.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

My remarks are general (or to Prudie) unless I'm actually naming someone. If I let on otherwise, I am sorry.

However, *Cactus*

I do have a question. You say that Aqua has a rigid set of standards for a mate, and you mean that not pejoratively. This is fine as far as it goes. Let's also stipulate that nobody takes issue with Aqua. Agreed and rock on Aqua.

So say I have requirements similarly rigid, that happen to coincide almost exclusively with women of Italian / Roman descent. Are you just as OK with my standards as you are with hers?

Aqua · Veteran Member

Cactus wrote:
Aqua wrote:
Cactus wrote:

If an Asian woman is with a white man that is one thing but if she dates white men exclusively (absent a reason such as an all white environment) then I would wonder.

-- Edited by Cactus on Friday 7th of December 2012 02:16:27 PM

Oops.
Though I have always been in a MOSTLY white environment.
But given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper, I'm probably looking for pretty much exclusively white dudes because most culturally Scandinavian-American midwesterners are white by definition. It's not an explicit preference but I would say it's a de facto one. So...oops.
But I don't think you would rule someone out based on race per se, would you? I also don't think you would assume that an Asian American male couldn't have your background, just that it wasn't common enough in your environment for one to be your probable mate.

No, not necessarily. It would just be very very unlikely. I mean, I didn't end up married to a guy with as much Scandinavian background as my family's but still western European and still very typically Midwestern.

My rationale is that marriage is hard, over a lifetime. Why not reduce complications as far as possible? It's why I would not have dated interculturally (though that's just for me and not something I'd say no one should ever do).

My standards were highly rigid but it's worked out really well so far!

Aqua · Veteran Member

Papa Bear wrote:
My remarks are general (or to Prudie) unless I'm actually naming someone. If I let on otherwise, I am sorry.

However, *Cactus* I do have a question. You say that Aqua has a rigid set of standards for a mate, and you mean that not pejoratively. This is fine as far as it goes. Let's also stipulate that nobody takes issue with Aqua. Agreed and rock on Aqua.

So say I have requirements similarly rigid, that happen to coincide almost exclusively with women of Italian / Roman descent. Are you just as OK with my standards as you are with hers?

For me it would depend on your intentions: are you doing so because others aren't good enough? Or is it because your family is Italian and the traditions are important to you, and you want someone who holds similar traditions so it's never a negotiation?

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Maybe other people's traditions aren't "good enough" either.

I agree it gets complicated. Luckily, freedom to judge without remorse makes life that much easier.

Cactus · Senior Member

PBJ, the way you put the question is pretty vague and could encompass a wide range of possibilities-from wanting your children to grow up with a particular language, religion, traditions, food, etc, to thinking all non-Roman women are subhuman. So I don't really want to generalize based on what Aqua said, as she had a pretty clear and specific explanation.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

"Given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper" -- Cactus how is what Aqua said clear/specific?

But alright - I'm looking for a woman who could practically be my twin. It so happens such a woman would be of European descent. Is everyone as fine with that as with Aqua's remarks?

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
"Given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper" -- Cactus how is what Aqua said clear/specific?

But alright - I'm looking for a woman who could practically be my twin. It so happens such a woman would be of European descent. Is everyone as fine with that as with Aqua's remarks?

I am ok with a white person wanting to date/marry only white people-they want to be with people like themselves (if that is their reason versus thinking other races are inferior). I personally have an issue with people who don't seek out people who are NOT like themselves.

Cactus · Senior Member

Papa Bear wrote:
"Given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper" -- Cactus how is what Aqua said clear/specific?

But alright - I'm looking for a woman who could practically be my twin. It so happens such a woman would be of European descent. Is everyone as fine with that as with Aqua's remarks?

If you want someone who shares your specific background, yes, I think that would be the same as what she is saying.

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)
Except if he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. want an all white kid) he should not have had a non-white wife. So I don't really see a comparison between gender and race in this example.
If he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. a boy), he shouldn't have married a woman? That's the logic (if that is the word) that you're using.

Obviously not because 1) that would not make any sense and 2) I did not say that.

Who he married would have no influence on the gender of his child whereby who he married would have influence on the race of his child so like I said I don't see a comparison between gender and race.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 10:53:52 PM