Invisapeeps 2.0

Papa Bear · Senior Member

RE: Should I tell my infertile Asian wife that I want all-white babies?

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)
Except if he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. want an all white kid) he should not have had a non-white wife. So I don't really see a comparison between gender and race in this example.
If he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. a boy), he shouldn't have married a woman? That's the logic (if that is the word) that you're using.
Obviously not because 1) that would not make any sense and 2) I did not say that.
Who he married would have no influence on the gender of his child whereby who he married would have influence on the race of his child so like I said I don't see a comparison between gender and race.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Tuesday 11th of December 2012 10:53:52 PM

I didn't say you said it. I said that's the logic you're using, because it is.

As for the bolded, I'm very aware you don't see the comparison. (I can do only so much.)

ETA: And thank you, Richard.

-- Edited by Papa Bear on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 01:12:27 AM

Aqua · Veteran Member

Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
"Given my quest for a guy who could practically be my twin on paper" -- Cactus how is what Aqua said clear/specific?

But alright - I'm looking for a woman who could practically be my twin. It so happens such a woman would be of European descent. Is everyone as fine with that as with Aqua's remarks?
I am ok with a white person wanting to date/marry only white people-they want to be with people like themselves (if that is their reason versus thinking other races are inferior). I personally have an issue with people who don't seek out people who are NOT like themselves.

My thought is that an interracial relationship isn't for everyone. To bring this back to the Prudie letter, I wonder about whether this guy was really equipped for it. Fine if you're not, as long as you're honest about that.

I knew I was inevitably going to be dating either interracially or interculturally unless I dated another banana, so I shrugged and went for the former. It's probably easier overall than negotiating differing cultural traditions, particularly with regard to family (who are very important).

Also, the marriage relationship is one of the most intimate in life, so I'm probably not going to care one iota what an individual's dealbreakers are. Don't want to date me because I'm Asian? Fine. As long as you don't toy with me and as long as you don't care who does date me (if you're against all interracial relationships, I judge; if you just don't want to be in one yourself, fine). Dealbreakers and dating criteria are very personal.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)

Except if he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. want an all white kid) he should not have had a non-white wife. So I don't really see a comparison between gender and race in this example.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)
Except if he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. want an all white kid) he should not have had a non-white wife. So I don't really see a comparison between gender and race in this example.

If he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. a boy), he shouldn't have married a woman? That's the logic (if that is the word) that you're using.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)
Except if he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. want an all white kid) he should not have had a non-white wife. So I don't really see a comparison between gender and race in this example.
If he wanted a common thread with his kid (i.e. a boy), he shouldn't have married a woman? That's the logic (if that is the word) that you're using.
Obviously not because 1) that would not make any sense and 2) I did not say that.
Who he married would have no influence on the gender of his child whereby who he married would have influence on the race of his child so like I said I don't see a comparison between gender and race.

Since the wife is infertile, she will have no influence on the race of his child either. The analogy that PBJ puts forth is sound because of that small twist of fate.

Forty-two · Guru

PBJ that is not the logic I am using, no matter how often you say that it will not make it the case. Since the OP couple did not know the woman was infertile when they married and who you marry has no influence over gender the comparison does not work for me. It also does not work because they are talking about getting a donor egg which once again would have no influence over the gender of the child. So this comparison may work for you and Richard but it does not fit the scenario in the OP no matter how snotty you want to be about it.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 08:08:02 AM

Forty-two · Guru

A black man writing a similar letter would be completely different because he is not coming from the privileged point of view like the white guy is. Also a black man marrying a non-black woman is even less likely to want an all black kid because it feeds into why (according to the issues I mentioned up thread, based on studies I have read, and what I have experienced) he married the non-black woman in the first place. So it is tougher for me to answer. There would be one thing that a black man and a white man would have in common writing the letter is that they both are morons. If you want a baby the same race as you get a wife that is the same race.

As an aside but related I was traveling this weekend and I had my black nanny watch my (biracial) son because DH was traveling too. She said she was going to "get with" a white guy so she could have a baby like mine. She said heck the guy may not last but at least she would have a beautiful baby like my boy-not that my kid is very special looking at all but there is a perception that a mixed race kid is better than an all black kid. There is soooo much that goes into some black people getting involved with white people that I can not even begin to capture it all on a message board. And yes and before someone says it, yes, in some cases race does not matter, a black guy may marry a white woman just because he loves her...and some people ask why does he love her...

-- Edited by Forty-two on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 10:39:08 AM

Forty-two · Guru

Huh?

You said that anyone who could purchase an egg was privilaged....

-- Edited by Forty-two on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 03:08:27 PM

tigerlily · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)

I agree that the guy is not automatically racist.

However, if it's really just a preference and he's truly fine with mixed race children, I don't see why he wouldn't have just asked his wife "Is it important to you to have a donor of your race?" Why does he need an advice columnists help?

If this were a case where they could choose if the child was a boy or girl, I would think it equally horrible if he pushed for 3 boys regardless of the fact that she wanted a girl. What makes his preference more important than hers?

And honestly, I would think raising a girl and raising a boy would be a bit different. Different experiences parents look forward to (football vs cheerleading, whatever). I don't see how an all white kid vs a mixed race child would change that. He is afraid of racism towards a mixed race child, yet his wife has never experienced racism? Sounds like his community is more accepting than he is giving them credit for.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Tiger, I'll also agree the guy has a bit of unwarranted fear here. If this were a mixed egg or something other than his preference, so what? So that's a really good fair point.

Forty-two · Guru

tigerlily wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
To bring this back to the Prudie letter, how is his stated preference different from preferring a boy over a girl? Can a desire for a common thread just be a desire for a common thread, nothing more? (That's a rant against Prudie more than anything.)
I agree that the guy is not automatically racist.
However, if it's really just a preference and he's truly fine with mixed race children, I don't see why he wouldn't have just asked his wife "Is it important to you to have a donor of your race?" Why does he need an advice columnists help?
If this were a case where they could choose if the child was a boy or girl, I would think it equally horrible if he pushed for 3 boys regardless of the fact that she wanted a girl. What makes his preference more important than hers?
And honestly, I would think raising a girl and raising a boy would be a bit different. Different experiences parents look forward to (football vs cheerleading, whatever). I don't see how an all white kid vs a mixed race child would change that. He is afraid of racism towards a mixed race child, yet his wife has never experienced racism? Sounds like his community is more accepting than he is giving them credit for.

It sounds like his community is less racist than he is!

tigerlily · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Tiger, I'll also agree the guy has a bit of unwarranted fear here. If this were a mixed egg or something other than his preference, so what? So that's a really good fair point.

I think that's the entire issue here though as to why he seems racist.

An all white child wasn't important enough to him to choose a white wife and future mother of his children. Surely he loves her and was looking forward to creating a child together. So why does he now suddenly want to exclude all physical resemblence to the mother? He thinks that a mixed race child would experience negativity? How about the all white kid constantly being accused of being adopted? Or asked why he/she doesn't look like their mother?

It's not adding up to me and I think that's why so many are assuming he's racist. If he's not, then what's the big deal in just letting his wife decide if the race is important to her??

tigerlily · Guru

lol 42, yes, it does sound that way

Forty-two · Guru

tigerlily wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Tiger, I'll also agree the guy has a bit of unwarranted fear here. If this were a mixed egg or something other than his preference, so what? So that's a really good fair point.
I think that's the entire issue here though as to why he seems racist.
An all white child wasn't important enough to him to choose a white wife and future mother of his children. Surely he loves her and was looking forward to creating a child together. So why does he now suddenly want to exclude all physical resemblence to the mother? He thinks that a mixed race child would experience negativity? How about the all white kid constantly being accused of being adopted? Or asked why he/she doesn't look like their mother?
It's not adding up to me and I think that's why so many are assuming he's racist. If he's not, then what's the big deal in just letting his wife decide if the race is important to her??

Yeah, I mentioned those issue too, dude is either racist or moronic! I am not sure which is worse

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
PBJ that is not the logic I am using, no matter how often you say that it will not make it the case. Since the OP couple did not know the woman was infertile when they married and who you marry has no influence over gender the comparison does not work for me. It also does not work because they are talking about getting a donor egg which once again would have no influence over the gender of the child. So this comparison may work for you and Richard but it does not fit the scenario in the OP no matter how snotty you want to be about it.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 08:08:02 AM

Not snotty. I'm sorry the comparison doesn't work for you.

I'll ask a different question. If this were a black husband writing this letter, expressing preference for a black child's egg, would that be racist?

tigerlily · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
PBJ that is not the logic I am using, no matter how often you say that it will not make it the case. Since the OP couple did not know the woman was infertile when they married and who you marry has no influence over gender the comparison does not work for me. It also does not work because they are talking about getting a donor egg which once again would have no influence over the gender of the child. So this comparison may work for you and Richard but it does not fit the scenario in the OP no matter how snotty you want to be about it.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 08:08:02 AM
Not snotty. I'm sorry the comparison doesn't work for you.
I'll ask a different question. If this were a black husband writing this letter, expressing preference for a black child's egg, would that be racist?

For having a preference? No. For wanting to exclude his wife's race for reasons that dont seem to make any sense and regardless of her wishes? Then yeah, possibly.

I don't think the race of the person in question matters. It's his arrogance that what he prefers is the better option. Maybe he prefers it for non-racist reasons. Maybe for racist reasons. Either way, it doesn't make sense.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
A black man writing a similar letter would be completely different because he is not coming from the privileged point of view like the white guy is. Also a black man marrying a non-black woman is even less likely to want an all black kid because it feeds into why (according to the issues I mentioned up thread, based on studies I have read, and what I have experienced) he married the non-black woman in the first place. So it is tougher for me to answer. There would be one thing that a a black man and a white man would have in common writing the letter is that they both are morons. If you want a baby the same race as you get a wife that is the same race.
As an aside but related I was traveling this weekend and I had my black nanny watch my (biracial) son because DH was traveling too. She said she was going to "get with" a white guy so she could have a baby like mine. She said heck the guy may not last but at least she would have a beautiful baby like my boy-not that my kid is very special looking but there is a perception that a mixed race kid is better than an all black kid. There is soooo much that goes into some black people getting involved with white people that I can not even begin to capture it all on a message board. And yes and before someone says it, yes, in some cases race does not matter, a black guy may marry a white woman just because he loves her.

Anyone in position to purchase an egg is from a standpoint of some privilege. I'm approaching this situation in terms of the individuals involved.

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
A black man writing a similar letter would be completely different because he is not coming from the privileged point of view like the white guy is. Also a black man marrying a non-black woman is even less likely to want an all black kid because it feeds into why (according to the issues I mentioned up thread, based on studies I have read, and what I have experienced) he married the non-black woman in the first place. So it is tougher for me to answer. There would be one thing that a a black man and a white man would have in common writing the letter is that they both are morons. If you want a baby the same race as you get a wife that is the same race.
As an aside but related I was traveling this weekend and I had my black nanny watch my (biracial) son because DH was traveling too. She said she was going to "get with" a white guy so she could have a baby like mine. She said heck the guy may not last but at least she would have a beautiful baby like my boy-not that my kid is very special looking but there is a perception that a mixed race kid is better than an all black kid. There is soooo much that goes into some black people getting involved with white people that I can not even begin to capture it all on a message board. And yes and before someone says it, yes, in some cases race does not matter, a black guy may marry a white woman just because he loves her.
Anyone in position to purchase an egg is from a standpoint of some privilege. I'm approaching this situation in terms of the individuals involved.

No matter how rich a black man is he damned sure does not have the same privalage as an equally rich white man.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

That's probably true, 42. Not very relevant in this situation but as far as it goes, unfortunately yes.

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
That's probably true, 42. Not very relevant in this situation but as far as it goes, unfortunately yes.

I think it is relevant in this situation and darned near every situation, which many people don't understand.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Are you saying you can read the LW's mind?

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

huckleberry wrote:
It is completely different.

How?

Black man wants egg of same race as he is. White man wants egg of same race as he is.

They seem the same to me.

ETA: and they are either BOTH racist or they are BOTH not racist.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 10:05:40 PM

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Anyone who's in position to buy an egg for this purpose, is in a position of some privilege. But that isn't my point.

Can you read LW's mind, yes or no?

Forty-two · Guru

That question is too silly to answer.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
A black man writing a similar letter would be completely different because he is not coming from the privileged point of view like the white guy is. Also a black man marrying a non-black woman is even less likely to want an all black kid because it feeds into why (according to the issues I mentioned up thread, based on studies I have read, and what I have experienced) he married the non-black woman in the first place. So it is tougher for me to answer. There would be one thing that a black man and a white man would have in common writing the letter is that they both are morons. If you want a baby the same race as you get a wife that is the same race.
As an aside but related I was traveling this weekend and I had my black nanny watch my (biracial) son because DH was traveling too. She said she was going to "get with" a white guy so she could have a baby like mine. She said heck the guy may not last but at least she would have a beautiful baby like my boy-not that my kid is very special looking at all but there is a perception that a mixed race kid is better than an all black kid. There is soooo much that goes into some black people getting involved with white people that I can not even begin to capture it all on a message board. And yes and before someone says it, yes, in some cases race does not matter, a black guy may marry a white woman just because he loves her...and some people ask why does he love her...

Everything not bolded is completely irrelevant to the fact that "because he's not white" is what (to you, and to many) makes a black man not racist to have the same exact stance.

It's BS.

You cannot have it both ways. Either it's racist... or it isn't.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Now now Richard, it's only BS to the non mind-readers.

42 here may have powers beyond our comprehension, to divine across timespace and brainwaves that this man is, in fact, a racist.

huckleberry · Senior Member

I don't think 42 is denying that a black man writing to say he prefers "all black" children so wants to purchase a "white" egg would be racist, simply pointing out that such a letter would be coming from a completely different, and much more complicated context, and far less likely. And I think the point she's making is interesting.

And PB, you didn't ask me the (I agree, silly) question, but I'm not claiming to read his mind, just his words. I know I'm repeating myself, but he says he wants the kids to look like him. But since a baby conceived with a "black" egg would look just as much like him as a baby conceived with a "white" egg, he means he prefers to have white children.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

huckleberry wrote:
I don't think 42 is denying that a black man writing to say he prefers "all black" children so wants to purchase a "white" egg would be racist, simply pointing out that such a letter would be coming from a completely different, and much more complicated context, and far less likely. And I think the point she's making is interesting.

And PB, you didn't ask me the (I agree, silly) question, but I'm not claiming to read his mind, just his words. I know I'm repeating myself, but he says he wants the kids to look like him. But since a baby conceived with a "black" egg would look just as much like him as a baby conceived with a "white" egg, he means he prefers to have white children.

She's saying it wouldn't be racist for a black man in the same situation to want a black egg.

Her exact words were "completely different".

huckleberry · Senior Member

It is completely different.

Forty-two · Guru

huckleberry wrote:
I don't think 42 is denying that a black man writing to say he prefers "all black" children so wants to purchase a "white" egg would be racist, simply pointing out that such a letter would be coming from a completely different, and much more complicated context, and far less likely. And I think the point she's making is interesting.

And PB, you didn't ask me the (I agree, silly) question, but I'm not claiming to read his mind, just his words. I know I'm repeating myself, but he says he wants the kids to look like him. But since a baby conceived with a "black" egg would look just as much like him as a baby conceived with a "white" egg, he means he prefers to have white children.

Huck you understood exactly what I was trying to say.

Forty-two · Guru

RichardInTN wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
It is completely different.
How?
Black man wants egg of same race as he is. White man wants egg of same race as he is.

They seem the same to me.

ETA: and they are either BOTH racist or they are BOTH not racist.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 10:05:40 PM

Do you think there aren't confounding factors with the black man versus the white?

Like I said I cannot say if the black man is racist compared to the white guy, but perhaps one should consider some of the reasons a black man would be married to a non-black woman versus why a white man may be. Yes, both may love this woman (and there are no other confounding issues at all) but the black man may do it because of status, self-loathing, etc. It is quite doubtful that a white man is doing the same thing. When I was talking about privilege up thread it was not about finances it was about just the basic benefit of being a white man.

In the scenario in the OP the white man made a concession to marry the non-white woman (as it would appear since he would not want to have children that carry the features of her race) he married her despite being white versus the black man who may have married a non-black because she was not black. It may be intentional that the black man is seeking out a non-black or it may be some deep self-loathing thing or it may be just coincidence. But the scenario proposed by PBJ is just not one I can get my head around.

There is a group of people who think that we live in this colorblind world and all things are the same for black and white people, that notion is absurd and not the case. And there are a few scenarios for a black man's actions being the same but the motives are completely different. Whle Richard you may think they are both either racists or not I cannot agree; racism is not in the act it is in why the act was committed.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Thursday 13th of December 2012 05:35:07 AM

huckleberry · Senior Member

RichardInTN wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
It is completely different.
How?
Black man wants egg of same race as he is. White man wants egg of same race as he is.

They seem the same to me.

ETA: and they are either BOTH racist or they are BOTH not racist.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 10:05:40 PM

The situations are different for the reasons 42 already pointed out.

Again, no one has said that it would not be racist for a black man married to a white woman to prefer that his kids be "all black" under the same circumstances. But the nuances are quite different.

Forty-two · Guru

RichardInTN wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
It is completely different.
How?
Black man wants egg of same race as he is. White man wants egg of same race as he is.

They seem the same to me.

ETA: and they are either BOTH racist or they are BOTH not racist.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 10:05:40 PM
Do you think there aren't confounding factors with the black man versus the white?
Like I said I cannot say if the black man is racist compared to the white guy, but perhaps one should consider some of the reasons a black man would be married to a non-black woman versus why a white man may be. Yes, both may love this woman (and there are no other confounding issues at all) but the black man may do it because of status, self-loathing, etc. It is quite doubtful that a white man is doing the same thing. When I was talking about privilege up thread it was not about finances it was about just the basic benefit of being a white man.
In the scenario in the OP the white man made a concession to marry the non-white woman (as it would appear since he would not want to have children that carry the features of her race) he married her despite being white versus the black man who may have married a non-black because she was not black. It may be intentional that the black man is seeking out a non-black or it may be some deep self-loathing thing or it may be just coincidence. But the scenario proposed by PBJ is just not one I can get my head around.
There is a group of people who think that we live in this colorblind world and all things are the same for black and white people, that notion is absurd and not the case. And there are a few scenarios for a black man's actions being the same but the motives are completely different. Whle Richard you may think they are both either racists or not I cannot agree; racism is not in the act it is in why the act was committed.
I know that there aren't.

You are re-writing the scenario when it changes to a black person, to make the racism seem "more o.k.". Which is typical of every race's reaction to anything that they do that they don't like that white people do too. It's also pretty typical of how women react when they come across something they do, that they don't like it when men do the exact same thing.
If you don't believe you are doing that, re-read your middle paragraph and compare that to what PBJ asked you (which was: "If this were a black husband writing this letter, expressing preference for a black child's egg, would that be racist?"). In other words, he asked: "All other things being equal, change 'white' to 'black' and is it the same?"... and you can't help yourself.. you HAVE make BS excuses as to why it's different... when it's NOT.

I am not surprised that you think the bolded.

I am not re-writing anything I think things are different for people who are not white-All things are never equal in a black and white scenario. White people have privilages associated to their race that others do not. Other than that, it is hard to engage with someone when they say an opinion is BS. I would not be so rude to write that about a person's opinion when I did not agree with it or understand it. So on that note carry on with your BS.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Thursday 13th of December 2012 08:35:12 AM

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
It is completely different.
How?
Black man wants egg of same race as he is. White man wants egg of same race as he is.

They seem the same to me.

ETA: and they are either BOTH racist or they are BOTH not racist.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 10:05:40 PM
Do you think there aren't confounding factors with the black man versus the white?
Like I said I cannot say if the black man is racist compared to the white guy, but perhaps one should consider some of the reasons a black man would be married to a non-black woman versus why a white man may be. Yes, both may love this woman (and there are no other confounding issues at all) but the black man may do it because of status, self-loathing, etc. It is quite doubtful that a white man is doing the same thing. When I was talking about privilege up thread it was not about finances it was about just the basic benefit of being a white man.
In the scenario in the OP the white man made a concession to marry the non-white woman (as it would appear since he would not want to have children that carry the features of her race) he married her despite being white versus the black man who may have married a non-black because she was not black. It may be intentional that the black man is seeking out a non-black or it may be some deep self-loathing thing or it may be just coincidence. But the scenario proposed by PBJ is just not one I can get my head around.
There is a group of people who think that we live in this colorblind world and all things are the same for black and white people, that notion is absurd and not the case. And there are a few scenarios for a black man's actions being the same but the motives are completely different. Whle Richard you may think they are both either racists or not I cannot agree; racism is not in the act it is in why the act was committed.
I know that there aren't.

You are re-writing the scenario when it changes to a black person, to make the racism seem "more o.k.". Which is typical of every race's reaction to anything that they do that they don't like that white people do too. It's also pretty typical of how women react when they come across something they do, that they don't like it when men do the exact same thing.
If you don't believe you are doing that, re-read your middle paragraph and compare that to what PBJ asked you (which was: "If this were a black husband writing this letter, expressing preference for a black child's egg, would that be racist?"). In other words, he asked: "All other things being equal, change 'white' to 'black' and is it the same?"... and you can't help yourself.. you HAVE make BS excuses as to why it's different... when it's NOT.
I am not surprised that you think the bolded.
I am not re-writing anything I think things are different for people who are not white-All things are never equal in a black and white scenario. White people have privilages associated to their race that others do not. Other than that, it is hard to engage with someone when they say an opinion is BS. I would not be so rude to write that about a person's opinion when I did not agree with it or understand it. So on that note carry on with your BS.

"All other things being equal" MAKES things equal.

I understand why you won't admit the truth though. No one likes being called out for doing something they know is wrong.

And for reference, nothing I posted is B.S. you proved it to be correct again when you tried to excuse it (the bolded)... again.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Thursday 13th of December 2012 08:48:35 AM

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.
Some of us believe that races are equal, 42. This may be the sticking point.
The experiences of different races certainly are not, so one can believe that as much as they want but it is not so.
Agreed, but that has little to do with his letter.
It may have nothing to do with the orginal post (1) but it does have to do with "if all things being equal and it was a black man". (2)
1. Thank you!
2. Such a naive, post-racial notion, that.

I don't want to say naive because I hate to use such negative language but it is certainly not reality. A black man and a white man's actions may be the same but the reasons for doing the same thing may be vastly different.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Thursday 13th of December 2012 10:07:33 AM

Forty-two · Guru

Tiger you absolutely get the points I was trying to make.

-- Edited by Forty-two on Thursday 13th of December 2012 10:23:37 AM

tigerlily · Guru

RichardInTN wrote:
tigerlily wrote:
I think Richard & PB are assuming everyone is saying that a black man can't be racist.
Well, I cannot answer for PBJ, but, I am not assuming anything. It has been directly stated that "it's different if a black guy does it".
I'm sorry... but it's not... unless the races AREN'T equal. And if they aren't equal then it's still not racist... because the inequality makes the situations uncomparable.

Personally I see all races as equal. If anyone else wants to see their race as less than equal... that's completely on them.

I don't think the races are treated equally in our society. Some people see all races as equal, and then you have the ppl who think they are better.

If a black LW and white LW had the exact same motivations, then they'd be equally racist/non-racist in my opinion. They don't have to be equal to still be racist.

I guess it's kind of the same as a woman and a man don't have the same experiences/outlooks because the world treats men and women differently. They are equally capable of being sexist, but you can't really say their situations, in regards to their sex, are always the same, even if you personally would not treat them differently.

edited b/c subject/verb agreement is hard.

-- Edited by tigerlily on Thursday 13th of December 2012 11:50:13 AM

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
RichardInTN wrote:
huckleberry wrote:
It is completely different.
How?
Black man wants egg of same race as he is. White man wants egg of same race as he is.

They seem the same to me.

ETA: and they are either BOTH racist or they are BOTH not racist.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 12th of December 2012 10:05:40 PM
Do you think there aren't confounding factors with the black man versus the white?
Like I said I cannot say if the black man is racist compared to the white guy, but perhaps one should consider some of the reasons a black man would be married to a non-black woman versus why a white man may be. Yes, both may love this woman (and there are no other confounding issues at all) but the black man may do it because of status, self-loathing, etc. It is quite doubtful that a white man is doing the same thing. When I was talking about privilege up thread it was not about finances it was about just the basic benefit of being a white man.
In the scenario in the OP the white man made a concession to marry the non-white woman (as it would appear since he would not want to have children that carry the features of her race) he married her despite being white versus the black man who may have married a non-black because she was not black. It may be intentional that the black man is seeking out a non-black or it may be some deep self-loathing thing or it may be just coincidence. But the scenario proposed by PBJ is just not one I can get my head around.
There is a group of people who think that we live in this colorblind world and all things are the same for black and white people, that notion is absurd and not the case. And there are a few scenarios for a black man's actions being the same but the motives are completely different. Whle Richard you may think they are both either racists or not I cannot agree; racism is not in the act it is in why the act was committed.

I know that there aren't.

You are re-writing the scenario when it changes to a black person, to make the racism seem "more o.k.". Which is typical of every race's reaction to anything that they do that they don't like that white people do too. It's also pretty typical of how women react when they come across something they do, that they don't like it when men do the exact same thing.

If you don't believe you are doing that, re-read your middle paragraph and compare that to what PBJ asked you (which was: "If this were a black husband writing this letter, expressing preference for a black child's egg, would that be racist?"). In other words, he asked: "All other things being equal, change 'white' to 'black' and is it the same?"... and you can't help yourself.. you HAVE make BS excuses as to why it's different... when it's NOT.

Forty-two · Guru

Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

huckleberry wrote:
I don't think 42 is denying that a black man writing to say he prefers "all black" children so wants to purchase a "white" egg would be racist, simply pointing out that such a letter would be coming from a completely different, and much more complicated context, and far less likely. And I think the point she's making is interesting.

And PB, you didn't ask me the (I agree, silly) question, but I'm not claiming to read his mind, just his words. I know I'm repeating myself, but he says he wants the kids to look like him. But since a baby conceived with a "black" egg would look just as much like him as a baby conceived with a "white" egg, he means he prefers to have white children.

So read his words (paraphrased): Wife of different race from me is infertile, and we are thinking egg donation route. Since we could select any race egg, I'd prefer one that looks like me. How to broach this?

According to you (and Prudie), such a sentiment is horrible, awful, cretinous, and downright Republican if it comes from a white guy. It is however complicated and nuanced if it comes from the black guy. It being the same sentiment, the fact is the only way anyone has to know which it is, is to read the guy's mind.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.

Some of us believe that races are equal, 42. This may be the sticking point.

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.
Some of us believe that races are equal, 42. This may be the sticking point.

The experiences of different races certainly are not, so one can believe that as much as they want but it is not so.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

Forty-two wrote:
Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.

Since you re-wrote my thought to make it invalid (italicized)... I doubt it.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.
Some of us believe that races are equal, 42. This may be the sticking point.
The experiences of different races certainly are not, so one can believe that as much as they want but it is not so.

Agreed, but that has little to do with his letter.

Forty-two · Guru

Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.
Some of us believe that races are equal, 42. This may be the sticking point.
The experiences of different races certainly are not, so one can believe that as much as they want but it is not so.
Agreed, but that has little to do with his letter.

It may have nothing to do with the orginal post but it does have to do with "if all things being equal and it was a black man".

tigerlily · Guru

I think Richard & PB are assuming everyone is saying that a black man can't be racist.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Papa Bear wrote:
Forty-two wrote:
Richard even if someone writes "all things being equal" in a post does not make it so. In the US comparing a white man to a black man in a scenario it is hard to phathom that they are equal even in the most imaginative mind. I do understand, however. why you cannot see that.
Some of us believe that races are equal, 42. This may be the sticking point.
The experiences of different races certainly are not, so one can believe that as much as they want but it is not so.
Agreed, but that has little to do with his letter.
It may have nothing to do with the orginal post (1) but it does have to do with "if all things being equal and it was a black man". (2)

1. Thank you!

2. Such a naive, post-racial notion, that.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

tigerlily wrote:
I think Richard & PB are assuming everyone is saying that a black man can't be racist.

That's certainly what I was reading, tigerlily. At least in the scenario of LW's.