Invisapeeps 2.0

dkitts · Member

Well, here I am again, still married, still confused.

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

You could always remind him that it takes two to fight.

dkitts · Member

Richard - i've definitely done that - i hate trying to explain what happens in our arguments because it's so bizarre, I literally leave confused by the entire interaction

Essentially, it starts with me telling him not to do something that is hurtful to me, and then it goes into how there's nothing wrong with it, and that it's not meant "that way," and then it goes into something I've done to him that's completely unrelated, and in some cases something I did not do to him (a favorite is when I had a panic attack right before going on a trip with him and his parents back when we were first living together and I was going through a massive depression at the time - now he likes to bring it up as something that I did to him in holding up people who were waiting), anyway, it all gets confusing after that because he goes back and forth between attacking the fact that we are having the disagreement, and how we don't have time for it, and him declaring that I'm always yelling at him, and that I am abusive (he started this after I declared that I felt abused by him during an argument over a year ago, so, now he waxes poetic about how he doesn't know how to deal with the "things I do to him," and all the abuse.

He got so angry when we were arguing last night that he crushed a paper coffe cup in his hand while shaking with rage. He's now just completely hostile toward me - he has asked me multiple times every day for the last three days whether I knew where some bill of his was - and after I explained where I had placed it, which is where I place all of the mail to keep, he then declares that he must have put it somewhere else - but yet then brings it up to me as if I should know where it is all over again at another time. Like, WTF?

I am baffled and i have the sense that things are escalating, but I don't understand what's going on.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

You guys definitely need a therapist or a mediator. Most insurance plans have some kind of provision for it; I suggest you take advantage.

From what I can glean, he truly believes he has as much license to argue with you as you do him. If you're the one always instigating fights, he's not likely to change. As I say, you both need a third party in the room.

kinalikamom · Senior Member

Papa Bear wrote:
You guys definitely need a therapist or a mediator. Most insurance plans have some kind of provision for it; I suggest you take advantage.

From what I can glean, he truly believes he has as much license to argue with you as you do him. If you're the one always instigating fights, he's not likely to change. As I say, you both need a third party in the room.

You make it sound like she is provoking all the arguments. I have a different take.

dkitts, it sounds to me like you are married to a master manipulator. You were on the verge of walking and he knew it, so things got better. For a while. I agree with counseling but since it is "all your fault" I doubt your husband will go. But YOU should go. He accuses you of being abusive to confuse you and muddy the waters so that you don't see who the real abuser is. Although 'abuser' may not be the right word in this case, 'manipulator' may fit the bill. It doesn't seem like he has been physical with you but with the rage you describe...if you were afraid, please don't discount that.

If he is saying hurtful things to you then saying it's your fault for being hurt, there is something deeply wrong there.

I hope you get some help to sort things out. (((hugs)))

RichardInTN · I believe in I.D.I.C.

I agree with kina.

especially after what you described about when you tried the "it takes two to argue" point of view. Counseling wouldn't be a bad idea... but I dont' know how successful it will be unless and until HE admits there's a problem AND that he has some responsibility for it (I won't assign percentages, because only those involved know them).

dkitts · Member

I am so frustrated, just frustrated beyond words. Addressing it is so exhausting, but I don't want it swept under the rug and pushed further along with him. Every time, it gets worse, and his reaction is more furious. This weekend was the worst I've seen. On one hand, it's nice to see him express some feelings, but this is an incredibly mild mannered man...there is not one person who knows him who would ever expect him to show so much rage during a discussion like what we had. I've known him for almost 20 years and never have I seen him angry. In fact when we were first dating, he told me that he never "gets angry." At that time, I was incredibly amazed at this, as I certainly have been angry.

The truth is, though, that he doesn't get angry, he just seems to stuff it inside.

I know I'm the instigator. He's not going to spontaneously argue with himself. As he puts it, if I just didn't argue all the time, it would all be fine. I have seriously considered what this means.... But what that truly, in the end means, is that I cannot want to do something different or in a different way from what he wants. I also cannot have feelings about how he treats me. I express feelings, I'm not going to be passive aggressive and hold it in...that doesn't do anything and feels terrible. I know he must feel awful inside with all this anger that he doesn't think he can express, and all this inability to actually show love that he claimed is unfaltering. I asked him if he actually loved me still (I simply would not love someone who did what he describes me as doing.) and he could not simply say it. He said in a huge rush that his love is unfaltering and then continued on with his argument that our entire discussion was a massive waste of time. Ugh, yes, I'm going to go to my EAP and get couple counseling scheduled. He isn't studying now, just clinical during the day, so I'm going to just tell him when it is and ask him to come.

Papa Bear · Senior Member

Do you respect him?

dkitts · Member

Yes

Papa Bear · Senior Member

dkitts wrote:
Yes

If a therapist asked him, "Do you feel she respects you," how would he likely respond?

OpheliaDev1 · Guru

ITA with Kina. IMO, this guy is either a) unhinged - as in has some kind of mental illness that needs treatment or b) a manipulator.

Dkitts, please re-read what you've written. In his worldview, you are "instigating" fights by asking to be treated with kindness and respect. It's bad enough that you have to ask in the first place.

I think you need to really look over your relationship and ask yourself, "Do I want to spend the rest of my life like this?" Because it seems to me that unless something dramatic happens, you are going to have to fight an uphill battle for the rest of your life to be treated appropriately.

Have you considered recording him during one of these fights? Maybe if he can see/hear how he behaves during these "rages" when he is in a calm, receptive state, it would help?

Also, can you consider both you and he having some kind of "rule" about bringing up the past? Like the issue you mentioned about you making everybody wait. Can you perhaps hash it out and then agree to never bring it up again?

Cactus · Senior Member

He claims if you just didn't argue, everything would be fine...obviously this is not true, since you would still be hurt by things he is doing, you would have to do everything his way and never complain, and you could never communicate your feelings to him. Apparently he doesn't consider this a problem. Apparently nothing is a problem unless he has to deal with it, and if he has to deal with anything, it is all your fault.

You say you've known him for almost 20 years and he did not used to show anger-how long have these problems been going on? What was he like when in the earlier years of your relationship?

It sounds like he has an issue with not wanting to deal with normal problems, and with repressing emotions which then come out in a unhealthy, uncontrolled way, but if this has just started happening recently I wonder what else may be going on?

Evil Stepmother · Guru

I agree with the recommendations to talk to a marriage therapist. Perhaps part of your troubles could be that you two have different communication styles. A counselor could help you with that and all the other issues you are having.

kinalikamom · Senior Member

dkitts wrote:
I am so frustrated, just frustrated beyond words. Addressing it is so exhausting, but I don't want it swept under the rug and pushed further along with him. Every time, it gets worse, and his reaction is more furious. This weekend was the worst I've seen. On one hand, it's nice to see him express some feelings, but this is an incredibly mild mannered man...there is not one person who knows him who would ever expect him to show so much rage during a discussion like what we had. I've known him for almost 20 years and never have I seen him angry. In fact when we were first dating, he told me that he never "gets angry." At that time, I was incredibly amazed at this, as I certainly have been angry.

The truth is, though, that he doesn't get angry, he just seems to stuff it inside.

I know I'm the instigator. He's not going to spontaneously argue with himself. As he puts it, if I just didn't argue all the time, it would all be fine. I have seriously considered what this means.... But what that truly, in the end means, is that I cannot want to do something different or in a different way from what he wants. I also cannot have feelings about how he treats me. I express feelings, I'm not going to be passive aggressive and hold it in...that doesn't do anything and feels terrible. I know he must feel awful inside with all this anger that he doesn't think he can express, and all this inability to actually show love that he claimed is unfaltering. I asked him if he actually loved me still (I simply would not love someone who did what he describes me as doing.) and he could not simply say it. He said in a huge rush that his love is unfaltering and then continued on with his argument that our entire discussion was a massive waste of time. Ugh, yes, I'm going to go to my EAP and get couple counseling scheduled. He isn't studying now, just clinical during the day, so I'm going to just tell him when it is and ask him to come.

I have been thinking about you all day. And I have to say, the more I think about it, the more afraid for you I am. Both for your physical and mental well-being.

Regarding the bolded...what do you mean by 'instigator'? Do you bring up a subject that is uncomfortable for him that lights his fuse? That's not instigation. You're there and we aren't but I am wondering if you are taking responsibility for the arguments when you shouldn't be.

If I recall correctly, (and heaven knows I don't always and won't be offended if you correct me!) you are the sole breadwinner and putting your husband through school. Has he picked up the slack in the housekeeping department? I believe this was a sore point earlier.

This may sound crass, but I would safeguard myself financially. It is possible he has plans after school that don't include you. I'm sorry, but I think you should be considering this possibility.

You sound so unhappy. Maybe the two of you just aren't good for each other. It happens. When a spouse says "we'd be fine if only you would just....." it doesn't bode well.

catwoman708 · Veteran Member

It's never all one person's fault. All relationships have problems, differences of opinions or styles of handling things. That in itself is not what causes relationships to go bad, but failure to deal with these issues effectively. Sure you could just "quit arguing all the time" with him, but then your anger and frustration are repressed, which then cause you to be unhappy, resentful, and it can eventually take it's toll on your health.

Haven't you ever heard the saying that "The best defense is a good offense"? When he goes on the offensive by saying "it's your fault for arguing all the time" (even passive-aggressive behavior, or refusing to discuss something that needs to be resolved is an "offensive" tactic), then it puts you on the defensive. You have to defend your behavior, position, or continue to try to resolve the issue he is refusing to deal with.

So in my opinion, this is making it as much his fault, or more, than your fault. Your time and energy are much better spent finding solutions than placing blame. Once you realize how he has been manipulating you into thinking it's all your fault, you will see things much more clearly, and can call BS on his statement.