Invisapeeps 2.0

Forty-two wrote:

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tigerlily wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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Lily do you work in place with quotas? Is it working? do they have at least 40% women there? Do they have even close to parity of women in upper management to men?

-- Edited by Forty-two on Wednesday 22nd of May 2013 10:27:54 AM

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We don't have any official quotas. My field has a lower number of females. My friends has a higher number of females. My company seems pretty diverse from what I can tell, but I don't have any actual numbers.

I don't know how one would consider it 'working'. Having more females and minorities is certainly not changing the problem people. I've seen both people who are racist/sexist and people who have given preferential treatment to minorities for no reason other than they are minorities. I don't like quotas. I don't like discrimination. I don't know how to fix any of it.

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 I would consider it working if gender and race at work reflected the community.

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 But a community's composition doesn't necessarily reflect talent, skill, experience, etc.

 

For example - teaching is vastly dominated by women. More women than men go into that field. But they want their teaching staff to "reflect the community" that would mean roughly 50% male and 50% female. So in order to meet that, they would have to bypass good female candidates and hire mediocre male candidates, just because there are far fewer men in the teaching field than women.

I really don't know the answer if quotas are good or not, all I can say is I do wish people in general had more of the live and let live attitude. More of a if it has no direct detriment on my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness it's okey dokey by me. My only example is one of race and lifestyle, not really sexism. I was told when first working at a facility that I would be working with a white woman who preferred black men only, another woman who preferred married men only, and a gay man. And if I had a problem with that, that I would need to adjust or seek work somewhere else. My answer was, their lifestyle and wants was none of my business as long as they felt my choices were my business, that I had no problem trying to fit in and be one of the team. It irks me when someone feels they are better than someone else. That goes for any race, sex, or nationality.

jmfeldmann wrote:

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maybe we should just remove names, ages, and race from all applications.

then we can do interviews The Voice style. that way many of the things that people get caught up on that influence them would be eliminated.

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I think that would be an awesome idea!

ETA: remove "gender" too.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 22nd of May 2013 09:03:06 PM

RichardInTN wrote:

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OpheliaDev1 wrote:

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I think it's a very mixed message to try to teach people to not make judgements based on race, and yet have race-based quotas.

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Exactly. And that's WHY the Quota system can't create equality. Equality has to work itself out over time. If we (as a society, as a whole... NOT individually) are not ready for equality, then we just aren't. No amount of laws can make it happen. They can only make it exist artificially.

And as everyone knows, artificially created things never last as long as naturally created ones... if they last at all.

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Are you only not in favor of quotas or all discrimination/labor laws? Because with what you're saying it sounds like we shouldn't really have labor or discrimination laws at all. The companies that treat their workers better will get the best talent/etc, so the natural progression is of all companies treating their workers well eventually.

I think the quota system is broken. I also think the "lets hope for the best" system is broken. I don't think there's a reason to have quotas anymore, if they haven't worked by now, they probably aren't going to. But from my experience (which i'll admit is limited), there's no way to prove discrimination, so the majority of it will go unreported.

RichardInTN wrote:

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OpheliaDev1 wrote:

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I think it's a very mixed message to try to teach people to not make judgements based on race, and yet have race-based quotas.

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Exactly. And that's WHY the Quota system can't create equality. Equality has to work itself out over time. If we (as a society, as a whole... NOT individually) are not ready for equality, then we just aren't. No amount of laws can make it happen. They can only make it exist artificially.

And as everyone knows, artificially created things never last as long as naturally created ones... if they last at all.

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 Natural changes happen veeerry slowly, both in nature and in human society. So I think that quotas, etc, were necessary in the past (and in some areas may be necessary now) so that the forces of equality can gain some traction. But at some point, those measures need to be set aside. It will never be perfectly fair, b/c humans will never be perfect.

Forty-two wrote:

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OpheliaDev1 wrote:

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I think it's a very mixed message to try to teach people to not make judgements based on race, and yet have race-based quotas.

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 I don't understand this, well I understand what you are saying so I guess I should say I don't agree.  I don't think it is necessarily about making judgments, I think many people hire who they are comfortable with.  In a field where there are mostly men the men could keep hiring whomever they are comfortable with regardless if there are more qualified women out there.  The women will never be appropriately represented.

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At what point would it stop though? Hire X number of ugly people, Y number of overweight, Z number of short people. There will always be a group that is passed over in favor of others.

You don't have quotas (if you do, then i've misread again) and from what you've said, your workplace seems pretty diverse. So why are quotas needed? It seems like we've reached the point that quotas were meant to put us at?

Forty-two wrote:

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tigerlily wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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OpheliaDev1 wrote:

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I think it's a very mixed message to try to teach people to not make judgements based on race, and yet have race-based quotas.

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 I don't understand this, well I understand what you are saying so I guess I should say I don't agree.  I don't think it is necessarily about making judgments, I think many people hire who they are comfortable with.  In a field where there are mostly men the men could keep hiring whomever they are comfortable with regardless if there are more qualified women out there.  The women will never be appropriately represented.

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At what point would it stop though? Hire X number of ugly people, Y number of overweight, Z number of short people. There will always be a group that is passed over in favor of others.

You don't have quotas (if you do, then i've misread again) and from what you've said, your workplace seems pretty diverse. So why are quotas needed? It seems like we've reached the point that quotas were meant to put us at?

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 No we don't have quotas and my work place is not diverse AT ALL!!!! 

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 I must have misread. I thought you had women and minority people at high levels at a pretty good ratio. Although that wouldn't account for the general workforce I guess.

Forty-two wrote:

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OpheliaDev1 wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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OpheliaDev1 wrote:

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I think it's a very mixed message to try to teach people to not make judgements based on race, and yet have race-based quotas.

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 I don't understand this, well I understand what you are saying so I guess I should say I don't agree.  I don't think it is necessarily about making judgments, I think many people hire who they are comfortable with.  In a field where there are mostly men the men could keep hiring whomever they are comfortable with regardless if there are more qualified women out there.  The women will never be appropriately represented.

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 At some point, though, it will even out. Because some people will prefer men, some women, some black, some Asian, some short, some vegetarian, some smokers, etc. We are slowly but surely working to the point where these the majority of people don't have these strong preferences you are concerned about.

I see your point about quotas serving a purpose in counterbalancing those preferences, but I think that good is outweighed by the fact that the existance of quotas is interpreted by people as one group need special protection, etc, and the fact that quotas some times lead to a less qualified candidate being chosen.

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 I don't blame quotas for less qualified people being hired I blame the hiring manager.  I remember once a guy was complaining he could not find any good black entry-level candidates for a position.  If you are looking to recruit black people go to black organizations it was so silly, as an example it was like he was going to NASCAR to find blacks versus going to a Tyler Perry moving opening.  ETA: Unqualified people get hired all of the time when people hire who they are comfortable with instead of the most qualified.  I don't understand why this is the biggest complaint people put forward for quotas when it happens all of the time without them.  Is there any data out there to prove it is worse with quotas?

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If the hiring manager CAN'T hire the most qualified applicant because of quotas... how can you blame him/her for hiring the less qualified? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Richard in many cases the hiring manager does not look to find the most qualified quota candidate. They just automatically say the most qualified is x. Back to my first example of my girlfriend she automatically says women are more qualified without even looking. I am very sure she is not unique.

RichardInTN wrote:

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Forty-two wrote:

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Richard in many cases the hiring manager does not look to find the most qualified quota candidate. They just automatically say the most qualified is x. Back to my first example of my girlfriend she automatically says women are more qualified without even looking. I am very sure she is not unique.

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Oh, she's not unique. My Mother is the exact same way (and she's just as wrong as your girlfriend too). But you missed my point/question.

If the hiring manager CAN'T hire the most qualified person because a quota doesn't allow him/her to... how is it his/her fault?

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 I am sure it is not the case all of the time but like I said in one of my examples it is the hiring manger's fault because they are not trying hard enough to find an equally qualified or more qualified quota candidate.  

That would be great Doc Feldman if we did not have to have face2face interviews.

RichardInTN wrote:

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jmfeldmann wrote:

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maybe we should just remove names, ages, and race from all applications.

then we can do interviews The Voice style. that way many of the things that people get caught up on that influence them would be eliminated.

---

I think that would be an awesome idea!

ETA: remove "gender" too.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 22nd of May 2013 09:03:06 PM

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 i meant to! too many things at once.

 

you could interview through a screen, so you cannot see the candidate until you have made a decision.  Now this would not be as good for removing gender considerations once you get this far into the process, because most people do not have androgynous voices.

RichardInTN wrote:

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jmfeldmann wrote:

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RichardInTN wrote:

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jmfeldmann wrote:

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maybe we should just remove names, ages, and race from all applications.

then we can do interviews The Voice style. that way many of the things that people get caught up on that influence them would be eliminated.

---

I think that would be an awesome idea!

ETA: remove "gender" too.

-- Edited by RichardInTN on Wednesday 22nd of May 2013 09:03:06 PM

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 i meant to! too many things at once.

 

you could interview through a screen, so you cannot see the candidate until you have made a decision.  Now this would not be as good for removing gender considerations once you get this far into the process, because most people do not have androgynous voices.

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True. But it would get them to the "live interview" after they turn in their application anyway.

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 But nowadays you can get all the way to the live interview without them knowing your race and sometimes gender.  My girls have genderless names, and of course they don't have black names so there will be nothing on the resume to identify them and black women.  It is when they see you that is the issue (or speak to you on the phone they will know gender).

I have been screened on the phone and have had people love me on the phone but have walked into a job interview and not even gotten through it and they cut the interview short and I never heard from them again.  Now absolutely nothing was said during the F2F interview than what was said over the phone, the only difference is that then knew I was black.  Do I know they stopped the interviews because I was black?  No but like I said the conversation was the same F@F as it was over the phone.

RichardInTN wrote:

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Like I said, When SOCIETY is ready it will happen. Society isn't ready yet. No matter how much you and I want it to be. And no amount of forcing compliance will make it happen sooner.

Matter of fact, trying to force it will only delay it.

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 Yes and I know that there will probably be another two generations of people looking like my kids not getting an equal shot at things.  One of several reasons why blacks have higher unemployment than whites.  Yes I know it is not the only reason but I am sure it is one of the major ones.

RichardInTN wrote:

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Probably more than two generations... as long as quotas exist (and they still do exist at the college/university level).

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You think quotas are behind all of the racism and sexism in this country in the workforce and in regards to hiring people?  You think quotas in college are why guys are uncomfortable hiring women and whites are uncomfortable hiring blacks?  I remember at my last company there was an entire team of Chinese scientists, maybe ten of them.  The hiring manager hired all of these people, you think he did so because of quotas in college? He did not even attend college in this country. He didn't do it because of quotas at work because we did not have any.  And I am sure these were not the only qualified scientists out there.  

Yeah that's The Boy. Well it was him a few years ago. Thank you. We all think he is cute but we recognize that we are biased.